Strategies for Advancing in a World That Wants to Hold You Back

Hear from these remarkable women who overcame challenges and rose above their circumstances, providing you with inspiration and actionable insights. Learn the strategies and actions they employed to achieve their success.


Transcription:

Mary Ellen Egan (00:10):

Hello everyone. Welcome back. For our last panel of the conference, we have this fabulous trio of women that we are going to discuss how to navigate challenging times during your career. We've all had those. Sometimes they're self-imposed where it could be you're holding yourself back. Sometimes there are other imposed where your boss is a jerk. So we are not going to talk about specifics, but I want to introduce our panel first. Yie-Hsin Hung, who's the President and CEO of State Street Global Advisors. Beth Johnson, Vice Chair, Chief Experience Officer at Citizens, and Kate El-Hillow, who is the President and Chief Investment Officer of Russell Investments. So I think as we know in those of us who have lived a fair amount of time myself, there's different stages to your careers and different things happen during different times. So can you all talk a little bit about what were some of the challenges you faced early in your career, whether at the beginning or very early on? Yie-Hsin Hung do you want to start?

Yie-Hsin Hung (01:12):

Sure. I think for me it was really about finding my voice. I grew up in a family where the norm was to do what you were told, speak when you're spoken to. And I had followed my father's in his footsteps and studied engineering. So I found success without having to really say anything. And then I decided to go to business school and I found myself in an environment where half the grade was based on classroom participation and it was the hardest thing possible for me to raise my hand. And it was only until I was finally cold called, I started talking and I actually got a lot of good feedback. I actually did have something to contribute, but it wasn't like I conquered my ability to speak up. It took a long time. Even the first performance review I got in my first job, the MD said, you're in these rooms, you need to say something.

(02:09):

And I just remember finding an open office and I cried for half an hour and then I said, okay, I got to kind of treat this riding a bike. I just have got to say something, not even think about whether that was good, not good, and just keep getting back in there and doing it again and again. But it's been really hard because I think as we all know, oftentimes that's the opportunity you have for people to understand what it is you bring to the table. If you don't say anything, that's a really big missed opportunity. So I always say that was my biggest challenge. How about you, Beth?

Beth Johnson (02:44):

Yeah, by the way, I think that is absolutely right. I've always said take your seat at the table. And I tell young people, if you come to a meeting, I want you to say something. There's no other reason that I want you there. You have a valued opinion. So that's really important to always remember I think. So I was on a trading floor when I was just in my early twenties in my first financial services role, and I was one of only two women that weren't assistants on the floor. Now, interestingly enough, I think this made it really good for me as well as challenging for me because probably at least three or four times at various points, somebody asked me to go get coffee when I was like, I don't even drink coffee. I don't know where it is, which would confuse them, but also every single person talk about having to say something, every single person on the floor knew who I was from the most senior MDs, the heads of the department all the way on down. So it kind of forced me, I remember to speak up. It was also a very loud, boisterous swearing environment, so I kind of had to embrace it and own it, and it pushed me in the same way to say I am good at what I do. I thought I knew everything at 23, so maybe sometimes I needed to learn a little bit, but it really forced me to kind of take my voice in that room.

Kate El-Hillow (04:01):

So I can relate to a few things there one very early and my time is trading for related. I was asked if it was bring your daughter to Workday. I'm certain I was dressed for the part, but I guess the head of the desk didn't think that I actually worked there. So yeah, it kind of hits your confidence a little bit when stuff like that happens. I was also asked to fix the faucet in the men's bathroom. It was the favorite bath faucet that this gentleman used. And so there was a little bit of mis, I say perception in terms of what my role was on the early on they were the maintenance person. They thought it was maybe an assistant assistant could call maintain that could call maintenance, is my guess. But it's those things that they take you by surprise, but you just move on from them and it's kind of just too bad for them that they don't have better perception of the people that they work with.

(04:48):

But when I did find early on that I often was, I think either people maybe trying to protect me or look out for me, often were they say, are you ready for that job? Are you sure you want to take that next step up? And at times I think I started to question myself when I was being offered opportunities or I saw an opportunity that I wanted to take, and I think it took me a little bit of time to raise my hand and really push for things early on. Partially I thought maybe they didn't think I was right for it. And so whether it was moving to Tokyo during the Asian credit crisis where I saw a huge opportunity to learn a lot doing that, there was definitely, I really had to fight to kind of get to be the person that went over there. Or another example is early promotion even to VP where we'd just gone through a big restructure in the team, new heads of the group, and they asked me, do you think you're ready for it? And I was like, well, heck yeah. I mean of course that should be the answer, but it made me question myself. So I just think early on I had a few events like that that made me realize that only what you're capable of and you got to basically push for yourself.

Mary Ellen Egan (05:55):

So let's look forward a little bit to more, I think a couple of things happen If you might start a family, get married, start a family. So obviously you have to take somebody else's work and opinion into account. But also when you go from when you start managing people, that's a whole different experience as we know. So Kate, do you recall what that time was when you first started managing maybe what you learned to do and what you learned not to do?

Kate El-Hillow (06:21):

Yeah, I don't know if it's like when I first started managing, which is unfortunate for the earlier teams, but there was a point where I wanted to move into the next seat and it was a 25 person team that I was running a portfolio management team. And I realized that they weren't ready for me to move on, and I was so annoyed with myself that I was ready to move on to my next step, but I hadn't prepared the team to. And part of it was I think I had for so many years progressed and done well because I was good at getting stuff done and directing people on how to get stuff done, but I wasn't good at growing them. And so I started to talk to some people saying, I really need to get out of the seat. I want to move on to the next role.

(06:54):

And they coached me into helping me understand how do you actually bring that out of people? How do you get them ready to have that judgment to make that decision? And it took an extra year for me to kind of get that ready, but it was so fulfilling. I remember there was a group of people that would look at me like I was crazy where I wasn't giving them the answer. They were looking at me, I know you know what you want me to do, just tell me what to do. But I wasn't. I wanted to see how they stepped up. And it was great to see the couple of people that stepped into that seat really quickly when I pulled back.

Beth Johnson (07:24):

Yeah, it's interesting when I think about it, a lot of times developing talent has to be the most important thing you do as you go up in your career. One, it makes your work life balance easier. If you have really good talented people working for you, you can focus on in your job what you want to focus on and let them manage the things they need to manage. But one of the things, it actually started in women's events like this early in my career, probably around middle management, but then I've taken it the whole way is this idea of sponsorship. So I don't know if a lot of you think about the difference between sponsorship and mentorship, but somebody brought it up for me and a sponsor of you is actually a two-way street. So they are really helping you think about how do I get ready for the next role?

(08:05):

How do I step into the career? They say if someone's your sponsor, they advocate for you when you're not there. It's not about sitting down and having lunch and giving advice, it's about giving hard feedback, good feedback, but really thinking about how do you push them. And to me that was really important because one, it said to me, do I have those people for me? And two, am I delivering for them? Because it's not just about you guys have a sponsor that's going to help you. It's about are you helping your sponsor? If you're helping your sponsor be successful, then they're going to want to help you be successful, get you promoted. When they get promoted, they're going to want to tell somebody else that you should really put this person on their team, they're going to deliver for you. And so if you think about how you build those kinds of relationships on both sides, not just one way, I think you can really do well as a manager, but also as an employer, a colleague that's being managed. Think about how to further your career.

Yie-Hsin Hung (09:03):

I think my memories of becoming a manager, it was a really tough time for me because I had joined a firm that was sort of a second tier investment bank, but we happened to be really, really good at real estate. And then my firm merged with another firm. And so we were one of the first the few groups that actually ended up with roles. And it was tough because I had made it to managing director and I had to take stack back, give up my title, and I was at it really trying to hard and generating a lot of revenues. But every time it would come around that promotion was just not available. And I think looking back on it now, I sort of understand because this is a time when everything was going internet crazy, bricks and mortar, nobody cared about, we were just top heavy as a group.

(09:55):

And so the likelihood of me getting that promotion was very slim. But I was very lucky. I had a manager that I had a long standing relationship with and he sat me down and he just said, it's not going to happen. And not only did he say that, he said, let me help you find your next step. And so I ended up in a group that was sort of this combination of technology and business. And I remember being in this job for six months, I literally did not understand anything anybody was saying. I go from meeting to meeting, I'm like, oh God, I thought it was smart. And so then finally six months, I'm like, oh, I actually understand what's going on. And it was my opportunity to manage, but I remember less about that than I remember finding myself in a place that was completely outside my comfort zone and then thinking about how do I actually lead when I'm not?

(10:55):

I have none of the expertise. I don't know what the answers are and how do I begin to leverage all the great knowledge of the people on the team, bring them together to really establish a strategy and a way forward? And it was a great experience for many respects because as much as I liked the transaction environment, I loved building a business, thinking long-term, bringing a team along. And so there were a couple things woven during that time, figuring out how do you sort of move on from what you thought was going to be a career track to being in a place where you're just learning all over again and then learning again how to manage when you're brand new and you're trying to figure it out.

Mary Ellen Egan (11:37):

I'm just curious, any of or all of your institutions have some management training now and leadership? Because I think sometimes there's this expectation that it's just like, well, you're smart, so you'll be a good manager. I've had a lot of smart, really bad managers because I never got any training. And so I think there's a more hopefully thoughtful process about it today.

Yie-Hsin Hung (11:58):

I would say definitely today, and I'm a huge believer in it because I do think it's a big transition when you go from being an individual producer to a manager, you're no longer the doers, you're managing the doers. And it's more than that. It's more than managing people to do a bunch of tasks as we talked about I think earlier today. It's really about building relationships, understanding what it is that the folks on your team, what do they aspire from themselves, where do they see themselves, where can they develop at the same time making sure that they understand where it is that you're headed and that you're working as a team. And so I think some of that, including giving feedback, being direct, some of that is really, really hard to do. But I think as I've learned over my career, and I'm sure my fellow panelists have too, it's really hard to know how to get better if people aren't really specific about the things you've got to work on. So all of these things I don't think are naturally comes with being a manager, but that's where the investment of training really comes in. Very helpful.

Beth Johnson (13:00):

I think that's right. And part of my career, I was quite lucky, I was at Bain for 15 years in between that sales and trading experience and citizens, and it is a lot of leadership training and that is sort of the focus over time, which is how do we help develop you and develop your teams to be better leaders? So I was lucky enough to have a lot of formal training. And then the other stigma that was never there, it was having a coach. So we all got coaches, so it didn't matter what level you were at, and once you made partner, you had a coach. And so what I've found is now at Citizens, I've had a coach and I urge people, I think sometimes people think getting a coach for something if your company's willing to do it, is claiming that you have something wrong in your leadership style. But I find it quite the opposite. How do you have a trusted person that you can bounce ideas off that will give you that real tough, very specific feedback to you, and then how do you leverage it? So I think that's something that's really important if you get the opportunity to embrace. Yeah,

Kate El-Hillow (13:58):

I mean, absolutely. I think the formal training things I think exists much more than it might've been earlier in our careers. And I think it's helpful, but if you go back to your desk, it's hard to kind of take that home. So I think if you have the benefit of having a coach, but also what I've found is I say this to my leadership team, if you feel like you're spending too much time with your people, that's probably just about right. There's an element of knowing that to manage a team and to grow a team actually is going to take a lot of your mind share and starting to know how you fit that into your day and how you work. And then also finding people on the team that are excellent at growing people as well. I mean, it's a skillset, it's a talent. You can train people to do it, but some people just, they prioritize it and they're great at it. So I do think the training's important, but I think it's as important to find the talent of people that are actually good to be in those seats and promote them, not just the high producers.

Mary Ellen Egan (14:48):

Yep. Yeah, totally agree. So let's talk a little bit about what challenges you may be facing in your current role today. I mean, obviously the industry is like any other industry, it has its ups and downs and obviously the higher you get, you rise through the ranks, your challenges can be different from when you start. So what are some of the things that you're facing today

Kate El-Hillow (15:09):

And pace of change is just not getting any slower. And so I think it's both in terms of managing from a strategic perspective where you're focused, how you're managing your team, how you're helping think through restructures or really getting the most out of everybody is probably where I think is just increasingly as our business gets more competitive, as the world gets faster and faster, getting that balance rate in terms of evolving and innovating, but not creating so much change in the environment that people are operating in that they never are able to grow. And so I think it's trying to get that balance rate that it's critical. So whether it's gen AI related, a new business that you want to get into, really being thoughtful about how do you keep people focused on the stuff that's going to have the biggest impact, I feel is the thing I keep coming back to in terms of challenges right now.

Beth Johnson (15:58):

And totally agree with that. And maybe just to build, so part of my role is thinking horizontally across the bank. So I have things like data and analytics in my portfolio or payments or our sustainability efforts or other things that are really crosscutting and changing every day. And so really being good at thinking about where do we want to place those investments, how do we make sure that people get comfortable with it? So culture of change is something we talk a lot about and how do you think about gen ai where we want people to use it to understand it, to get value from it, but not too fast and not too scary and not too much. So I think it is thinking a lot about the culture and bringing people along, which is hard today

Yie-Hsin Hung (16:42):

For me. I stepped into this role, I'm coming around my two year mark, and what I've tried to think about is what is my responsibility? And it really comes down to three parts is strategy, which I think we've largely talked about, which is about making really tough choices because none of our firms can be all things to all people. We have to think about where's the opportunity, where can we punch above our weight and where are the bets that we're going to put down? Secondly is around your talent. And I think one of the things my coach helped me understand was the people that you have in your leadership positions are probably the most important decisions you make and you can never move fast enough to make sure you're the right people. And then lastly is really the culture. And I think this is reflective of Kate's comments about the pace of change.

(17:35):

Change is accelerating, it's not going to stop. And so how do I take a culture, which is a really wonderful culture, it's we place, not a me place, but not as agile, not as bold, not as decisive and innovative as I think it's necessary to be in this environment. So figuring out how do you shift that and all the elements, whether it's incentives or the people you have in leadership or the basis on which you promote people, all of those things, trying to think about how do you create an environment, a place where this is our best selves, and you are enabling everyone to really feel like, okay, we own this together and together we're going to adapt to all that change. I think having that is probably the biggest challenge. It's very difficult for anybody, most of all for people at the top of the organizations to really be able to understand everything that's happening in the environment with our competitors. So it is about creating that environment that invites that sort of perspective and empowers people to make those changes, to test, to try to learn to advance. That's what I'm most focused on these days.

Mary Ellen Egan (18:52):

Do you want to add something?

Kate El-Hillow (18:53):

Oh, no.

Mary Ellen Egan (18:54):

So one of the things I want to talk about is if during the course of your careers, if you had challenges or specific to being a woman in the industry. I mean before I became a journalist, I worked in restaurants for a long time and I have stories I would raise the hair on. It's like one table I waited on, the man asked me how much I charged when I got off work. So I mean hope none of you have those kinds of stories, but anyways, but there are certain things, and I also do remember once, do you remember that show What Not to Wear? Like Stacy Lennon, one of my colleagues wanted to nominate, two of my colleagues wanted to nominate me for that show. And not because I didn't dress like miniskirts or anything, but because didn't think my clothes were appropriately fit me appropriately or whatever. And I'm like, well thank you ladies. Anyways, that has nothing to do with being a woman, but were there certain things, I mean obviously times are different today, hopefully better than they were, but Yie-Hsin Hung, you want to start?

Yie-Hsin Hung (19:51):

Yeah, sure. I mean, I'm not your prototypical CEO by any stretch, and I think that when I started out, I remember being in a very macho group and what we would do gather, we had Monday morning meetings, this huge conference room probably half the size of this room, and then our boss would come in and for the person that won the deal of the week would throw 'em a football across the conference room table. I was like, what is going on? I've never played sports in my life. Please do not throw a ball at me.

(20:30):

Yeah, I mean, what about a Prada bag? I would jump for that. And so it's crazy. It's one of these things where I went home, I'm dragging my husband, please can we throw a football around just in case. So it's in this environment that I'm like, okay, I get to show up much more macho. This is the way to be. And ofcourse that didn't go over well because I think when you look at me, I'm like this small petite Asian woman that doesn't fit. And so I think it's really, I've had to learn to sort of adapt where I'm a little bit more what you might expect, but not exactly right. So I am a little bit of a twist on what you would expect to see, and I think that's part of the adaptation that I've had to make over time.

Mary Ellen Egan (21:17):

Has your throwing arm developed over the years?

Yie-Hsin Hung (21:20):

No, no. No footballs allowed anywhere near me.

Beth Johnson (21:25):

As I think about this, when I think about early on in our career, and I'm sure we all had examples that were kind of overt, I was on a trading floor, as I said at the time when trading floors in the nineties, they were a little iffy. I mean, I was an associate and my boss asked me if I would go to a strip club with a client just to give me the heads up so I could think about it

Mary Ellen Egan (21:47):

And dress appropriately.

Beth Johnson (21:49):

And my mom's book club debated it, by the way, which was really funny on what does she do? Fortunately, the client was like, we're not going to a strip club with Beth here. I was like, thank you. That was really nice. Right, but did they go without you? No, the client shut it down. He said, let's go somewhere else for drinks. But my boss at the time was more than willing to go, and there had been a famous woman in sales and trading who had gone, and so it was a little bit of lore. So I think he actually had to go, by the way, had I gotten there. But that kind of stuff I think happens less and less, right? People aren't actually throwing the football, but they're figuratively throwing the football, right? They're talking about sports or football. There's a little bit of the unconscious stuff that still goes on.

(22:35):

I have a daughter who's actually a first year analyst working in investments who just experienced her first time. She was like, I can't believe this just happened. Somebody from Asia just kept taking her off an email chain. She was the only woman. She's like, I don't know if they thought I was the assistant, but her boss kept adding her back on and the person kept taking her back off and she said, what do I do? So I do think it's gotten less overt, but you do need to be prepared and how do you take your seat? How do you speak up and how do you remember that? You still have to do that a little bit as a woman in many of these financial services jobs.

Mary Ellen Egan (23:12):

Beth, what was your advice to your daughter?

Beth Johnson (23:15):

Fortunately on that case, the firm she's at actually decided not to work with the person. So her boss was awesome. After the third or fourth time, they were like, yeah, we're just not, no, right. It's too obvious for these days. I think the harder thing for her right now is we're talking about how does she take her voice at the table? So she just prepped for a meeting. Her managing director on her team said, I'm going to call on you. We are all ready. We've set you up for success. And then the associate honor team did all the talking and took all her talking points.

(23:50):

So she came out of the meeting devastated, right? First thing she does is call her mom. I'm like, I don't have all the answers, but now we're talking about strategies. What do you do when that happens? Not the first time, not only to women, right? We've all had that problem or the more senior person, but just some of those strategies.

Mary Ellen Egan (24:09):

How about you, Kate?

Kate El-Hillow (24:09):

Yeah, it's gotten a lot better and I think we'll definitely keep it pg. There's definitely things early in the career, particularly when I was living in Asia, that got a little uncomfortable. And so I think it's trying to find the place that you're comfortable in pushing yourself to, I don't want to say blend in because I don't think that you need to do that, but just how do you add to the conversation and how do you also shift the conversation and the environment to be something that's a little bit more inclusive? And so that takes a little bit more finesse and certainly is harder to, I'd say early in your career, but I think that there's more openings to do it. One of the things that I would say often people do have blind spots, and so I know we've read about that, we've talked about that, and actually talking to people about the fact that what you're doing may be a little bit uncomfortable.

(24:53):

I think more and more people are willing to do that, and people are like, oh my gosh, I didn't even realize that that was the effect that I was creating with that. And it opens up the conversation a little bit. So I would say I've definitely been in that situation. There's been many times where I haven't gone and tried to address it, but when I do, I feel really good about it. Not just for myself, but for other people that might not be as comfortable in that type of environment, really being able to stand up for themselves and create something more inclusive.

Mary Ellen Egan (25:19):

So when you're looking back and what do you wish you'd known about facing challenges when you were early in your career? What do you think?

Yie-Hsin Hung (25:28):

Yeah, I mean, there's countless times throughout my career where I just felt like as a co-head of a group and then they named my co-head the head of the group and I was looking for another job, or I was sharing this at my table where I ended up in another role, having to take a significant pay cut. There's just like one thing after another that along the way is very, very frustrating and you feel like you're not being recognized enough. Why is it that I am the one having to go find my next thing? But to be honest, it was the best training possible for the role that I have today because for the middle part of my career, from that moment I moved out of banking into that role I described I had a different job, a different responsibility, a different company, almost every two to three years for a good 20 years run.

(26:21):

And it gave me the perspective of being able to see the business from many different angles. Again, time and again, putting myself outside my comfort zone, figuring out how to lead when I wasn't the subject matter expert, but being in a position where I could connect the dots. And so I think I would've said to my former self to be grateful for those challenges, for those failures, those times it was really, really hard. But I learned the absolute most in those tough times, and I am very grateful for those because at this point now, it's very difficult to really get me too flustered because I'm like, you know what? It's going to work out. I'm going to figure out how to make this work.

Beth Johnson (27:03):

Maybe I'll just share one of the best pieces of advice I got in my early thirties from a woman named Phyllis Yale who's just phenomenal. And she talked about how do you think about managing your career? And you hear a lot about work-life balance or when do you step back? How do you do this? How do you do that? And I had two daughters that I was just, well, I guess mid thirties, whatever it was, and she said, think about your career and your life together and think about it as a net present value. Now we're all finance people, so that sounds really geeky when you say it, but what you really meant was figure out how to get the help you need, whether that's on the job or whether that's at home, that's going to set you up for success for the long term.

(27:44):

So if you need help and you want to ask your spouse, or one time I asked my dad to fly in to stay with the kids because we actually couldn't either one of us be home, by the way. It turned out to be the best thing he ever did. He became really close to both my girls because he had to spend time with them on his own. Ask for that help. If you're 32 and you're thinking about childcare is really expensive, how do I think about this? How do I think about commuting? Well, think about it as I'm going to be on that path to take those chances over time. And so maybe I want to think a little bit different in the now. So I'm thinking about the long-term, and I think that was really great advice to get and to focus on what matters, whether it's at home or it's at work to make that all fit together.

Kate El-Hillow (28:29):

Love that there's always a solution. And if you ask for help and people, yeah, they come around, whether it's family or colleagues, I mean, I'd say do two things. One, focus on what you're bringing to the table, not what you don't have. And so whether it was being one of two women at a private equity team that I was on at JP Morgan where I kept on thinking, these are all, at the time I thought they were all 50 and 60-year-old men that went to Ivy League schools. They were probably 40, but I was like, I just felt like I didn't fit. So I should have focused on why I was there, why I was one of the few people that got brought to the table. It had various versions of that. Another version, when I joined Goldman, I was thinking it was such a storied place, all the things that other people had that I didn't have, and it slowed me down.

(29:18):

And so if I look back, what I wish I knew then is focus on why you're there, not why you're not there, the things that you don't have. The other thing I would say is, and this is my sister, younger sister and I talking, for the most part, when a bad situation happens, I step up, I figure it out, you make lemonade out of lemons, but sometimes it honestly is just lemons. And when you're in those situations, you got to figure out what is the right thing to do for you. And that might be a really hard decision to move out of a job, to have a really difficult conversation, but there's sometimes where just making the most of it or making the best out of the situation isn't the best track. Sometimes you actually need to make a bigger call and you probably inside know when that is. Those are be the two things I wish I knew back then

Mary Ellen Egan (30:03):

Briefly, what's a really good piece of advice that stuck with you over the years? When I first started out in journalism, my editor at the time told me was a woman, she's brilliant. She said, what you leave out is just as important as what you put in. And that has shaped my thinking about how I write. So are there something that somebody told you over the years that really stuck to you and really became important to you?

Kate El-Hillow (30:28):

Yeah, I'm having a kickoff. I'd say getting the balance right between being patient and taking risk was a great piece of advice that I'd gotten. I think it was probably early in my career where I saw a bunch of friends, I'd started out in analyst class with all moving on to what seemed like cooler jobs and better. And I was like, okay, what's the right move for me? And getting that right balance of finding the right job for you, right risk for you to take, but being patient while you're doing that. And I've just found that through my career, there's so many different opportunities that come your way. And knowing when it's time to take that risk and knowing when it's time to continue in the seat and maybe be a little bit more patient, I'd say is probably the biggest one that stuck with me. The other one that I say a lot to our team is always focus on not just your firm, but focus on what the competitors are doing, what clients are doing, what's happening in the industry. There's nothing better than, again, getting that other idea set coming into your ecosystem when you're thinking about what is that next step I want to do for my client, for the business, for your career? And if you don't focus on what's happening kind of outside your four walls, I think you miss out on something. Yeah,

Beth Johnson (31:33):

I've already gave one, but maybe just to build on that one, I also think there's a real tendency to try to make things too perfect. So how do you focus on the best answer on things and what you're trying to solve? Not the right answer. There's very rarely a perfect answer and speed matters. So you've got to think about what the best thing is and move on as you need to.

Yie-Hsin Hung (31:55):

I agree completely with what you both said. I guess for me, I think for most of my career I was always focused on delivering on the bottom line. Just I think for all of us, that's really, really critical. But I remember advice that I got, which is it's just as important how you do things as to what you do. And I dunno whose quote, I think it's Maya Angelou, she said, people will always remember how you make them feel. And I think that is so incredibly important. I mean, that came to life during the pandemic when we realized it's not just about the IQ side of the equation, it's the eq, it's the connectivity, it's the person, it's the human, whether it's our clients, our colleagues, our family, they all matter. And we all are in businesses that are people businesses. And so being able to win people's hearts and their minds I think is really a critical thing. So I oftentimes have to remind myself, slow down a little bit. Let's just make sure I'm bringing people along the journey with me and not getting too far ahead.

Mary Ellen Egan (33:03):

We have some time for questions and there should be, Mason is roving with getting his exercises steps in today. You can ask pretty much anything. Don't ask me obviously for clothing advice and styling, but you can ask these lovely ladies that we have a question over there.

Audience Member 1 (33:24):

Hi, thank you for your time today. I was wondering if you had experience with and recommendations for maybe being in a room with many male colleagues and you have an idea and by the end of the meeting they've kind of mansplained it and it's their idea and they go out with it as their idea.

Yie-Hsin Hung (33:49):

I think this is where you have to speak up for yourself. I talked about how difficult it was to really even get myself to say anything. So one of the things I would do is just try to speak at the beginning of the meeting just before all the ideas got on the table and I felt like every idea was said, but if I found myself in that situation, I'd remind people, as I said at the very beginning, just be clear. You don't have to be a jerk about it, but you have to remind people what your contributions are. And so over the course of time, I think it starts to settle in. I used to have constantly people interrupting me. I thought there's something wrong with me. Every time I open my mouth, somebody has to interrupt me. Why is this happening? So I mean, some of it you just have to keep working at it so that you remind people, this is what I said.

Beth Johnson (34:44):

I think that's right. I think the other thing you can do is if you have a trusted person in the meeting with you, and when that's happening, ask them to also remind people that happened. So the most extreme example of that I ever saw was there was a very senior woman at Bain and she had a client that would never give her credit for anything the team did and would really talk to the junior people on the team. So they went to a meeting and every time the client asked them a question to the man, he turned and looked at her and she gave the answer after one meeting. That's kind of awkward. It stopped happening, but you can enlist other people to help you back to the task.

Kate El-Hillow (35:23):

Yeah, I go to the enlisting other people, but I'd also take it now, if you're in the seat where you see that happening, you need to correct for it. And so you create the environment that doesn't allow that to happen. But I also wouldn't minimize it. A lot of people in the room probably do know that that's what that person does. And so there's ways to think address it. But the other thing I would say is what happens after the meeting probably matters even more in terms of actually taking that idea and doing something with it. And I found that sometimes those people aren't as good at actually driving through the idea. They're good at talking. And so really owning and driving something is what matters.

Mary Ellen Egan (36:01):

Well, that struck a chord. We all know that person. Another question.

Audience Member 2 (36:08):

Sorry, I'm wondering if you have any advice for, I was in an interview with a very senior male hiring manager, and I felt that the attitude I was getting was one of dismissiveness and disrespect, and I didn't know how to handle it in the moment, and I just sort of took it and afterwards I was so angry. I was so offended that it was the first time in my life that I didn't send a thank you note after the interview because to do so would've been to thank him for insulting me. And this happened a couple months ago, and since then I've been pondering how could I handle myself with dignity and respect and also showing respect to him if it happened again. That's what I would like to, if anyone had or either anyone on the panel or if anyone has any experience in the room and can share that with me, I'm open to all advice. Thank you.

Mary Ellen Egan (37:20):

I've never had a male dismiss me ever.

Yie-Hsin Hung (37:26):

I don't know. First off, if you were to have gotten the job, is this actually someone you want to work for? I think I don't think so. So is he really worth even an iota? Thought it would be like, because you're far better than whatever impression he left with you. So he doesn't deserve, doesn't your time of day and sometimes Look, I may have. That was well said. I mean, if you work with somebody, you're working with them every day and they're kind of not treating you well, you got to have a serious conversation. You get to figure out how do you enlist others? How do you have a direct conversation? How do you enlist your manager? But for someone like this, I mean he did you a favor honestly, right? In a way you're like, thank you. I'm not coming to your company and it's your loss, not mine.

Mary Ellen Egan (38:23):

There's a phrase about something like, don't let people rent space in your head that don't deserve it.

Kate El-Hillow (38:27):

Totally.

Mary Ellen Egan (38:28):

That took me a while to figure out how not to do that, but it is because somebody that's obviously so disrespectful, they should not be living anywhere in my head. Do we have any more questions? Yeah, I'll give you this. I'll leap.

Kate El-Hillow (38:44):

Off the stage. I was going to say that was impressive.

Audience Member 3 (38:47):

I was going to say, I think I'm worth it to your point, I just wanted to know how do you manage your way through an organization that if you start a zoom session or meetings, and the first thing that the men start with is this sports and they spend 40 minutes talking about sports that nothing about didn't watch the game last night. And it's not inclusive, and I don't think that they're.

Kate El-Hillow (39:18):

Throw football at their face.

(39:24):

40 minutes is border on more than excessive. So I think if you have to put up that, you should be able to cut in before, I mean, again, if it's something that's happening persistently, and I say if it's happening persistently, I think it's that you actually address it directly with your colleagues and head on. And I wouldn't say try to participate in it, but I would do it on the side. I wouldn't necessarily do it in the moment. I think I've gotten different direction from people or advice from people and do it in the moment. But I mean, 40 minutes sounds like you didn't need the meeting.

Beth Johnson (39:55):

You're exaggerated. But she's at citizens and we have a group of people who talk a lot about sports at the beginning of every meeting, and it has come up as a challenge. I think it's just, it's one of those things that's very hard to change. It's just a topic. Their idea of being inclusive is then switching to golf.

(40:17):

For football.

Kate El-Hillow (40:19):

But would you say whoever's leading the meeting?

Beth Johnson (40:23):

But I think to bring it up again, it's a good thing and I'll bring it up that you said it here because I No bring it up that you said it. I'm just going to bring it up that I heard it as a reminder to all of us at the leadership team because I do think one of the responsibilities is you get more senior in these organizations because it's not intentional. This is not something that is intentional. I don't even think they understand it. It's a way of relating, but it actually is a really important reminder for folks that can be off-putting to people who don't want to catch the football.

Audience Member 3 (40:58):

Didn't stay up until midnight.

Mary Ellen Egan (41:03):

I wonder if the boss knows about that. It's like, oh, you're wasting all the company time talking about sports.

Beth Johnson (41:08):

Yes.

Mary Ellen Egan (41:10):

We had another question. It doesn't have to be 40 minutes, but it feels like 40 minutes.

Audience Member 4 (41:19):

Well, just a comment from Boston, so I know what you're talking about and with the sports or Rhode Island, whatever, but I would say actually bringing it back to Priscilla's session, just a quick comment on the equal ground, and you're not going to get these guys to stop talking about sports, but somehow giving you a place to contribute in terms of, so what did you do, et cetera. I just wanted to bring that in.

Mary Ellen Egan (41:46):

I think we're out of time. I want to thank our fantastic panelists. I think it was just an invigorating and enlightening conversation. I also want to officially thank all of you and our sponsors and the honorees for attending the conference. I'm always happy to get feedback, find me through LinkedIn and message me through that. We're always looking to improve and meet your needs because this is your conference. We're just the host, and so if there are things that you think we need to address or things we need to dial back, I'm happy to take that feedback. But again, I want to thank all the honorees and all of you who attending and our sponsors. Thank you so much.