Stuck in the Middle? How to reach the next level

Transcription:

Daniel Wolfe (00:08):

Back everyone. I hope you enjoyed this morning's session so far. We're going to keep the conversation going right now with a discussion about stuck in the middle, how to reach the next level, moderated by my colleague Kate Fitzgerald. Take it away.

Kate Fitzgerald (00:25):

Hi there. Of course, this will be the most interesting session in your career ladder discussion. Hopefully. We're going to just start out, we with Judith on the end, and I'm going to let each of them give a brief summary of their name, title, and their career path so far. If you're looking in terms of a map, when you rocketed straight to the top or were things, oops. Now, did you start off slow and build to your present leadership level and where were the plateaus? If you could just kind of give us a little terrestrial look at how your career went.

Judith McGuire (01:08):

Like a Topo career map map or something. Hi, I am Judith McGuire, SVP of Global Products at Discover, and I would most definitely say it hasn't been a straight ascent into my current role. I've been with Discover, oh gosh, over 20 years, so the majority of my career. But before Discover when I was younger and a young mother, I was working for a different company and at that point I actually stepped back and started working 30 hours a week and left every day at three in the afternoon to pick up the kids. And so that was a time in my career where I perhaps slowed down a little bit in terms of my progression. And then when the kids got into school and I was able to start working full-time or wanted to start working, then I took a different role and started to move up.

(02:08):

And I would say I had a second plateau in my career. I'm focusing on the plateaus. I think that's the title of this panel where I was in a role in my last role and had been there for a long time. And the person in front of me, I was that person's successor, but that person was not ready to retire or move on. And so I needed to think about do I stay in this successor role or do I kind of lateral over or look for a different opportunity? So there was an interesting set of choices for me to make as I started to think through how do I get kind of unstuck in this place?

Kate Fitzgerald (02:50):

So that's a good quick overview of the terrain and we're going to come back to some of those pivotal points as we come back around again and how you navigated each of those transitions. Okay, let's move on. Chelsea.

Chelsea Puckett (03:05):

Hi, Chelsea Puckett. I work for Stride Bank. I'm the SVP of Strategic Payment Systems. As far as my career goes, I have been at Stride for 12 years and I truly grew up at Stride. I had a great opportunity there where I came in at a good opportunity to really start growing with the bank. So we have tripled our balance sheet in the last 12 years, well, really four years. But anyways, I was able to come in and kind of work really hard to build out things that we've become successful with Chelsea in my role now, getting to lead the team that is continuing anyways. And then again, I think having the opportunity to come in and now lead the team to further success. So for me, I probably am just now getting to some of my plateau moments where it's kind of like what is the next step and is that here? Is there progression? Right? And I am happy to make some decisions about do I move in a direction of operations? Do I stay in payments and those sort of things. So I'm kind of just getting to that point in my career right now.

Kate Fitzgerald (04:18):

Yaminah, was your career a straight shot up to the top or did you have any plateaus?

Yaminah Sattarian (04:23):

My career definitely was not straight to the top humanitarian. I'm with KeyBank, I am a group lead there. I'm an SVP as well. So currently in my role I work on institutional payments. I work with companies that are 250 million to multi-billion dollar companies. But realistically early on I started in a retail management training program. I was working full-time. I was going to school. My parents were immigrants. They did not have money for college, so I really had to drive and build myself up. So I didn't go to an Ivy League school, but I'm proud of where I am today. It really kind of built the backbone that I have. But being in the retail management training program, I was a little bold in the sense of I really reached out to different people throughout the organization, outside the organization. I was very curious, right? I wanted to learn so much about what was going on in the world and banking and other industries.

(05:19):

So while I was in the retail management training program, I met some folks within the treasury and payments industry. And when I graduated, I was kind of done with the program and I had them reach out to me. So that's when I started the payments experience. Spent a couple years within just basic domestic treasury management, and that's ally when I felt like I was stuck, I really didn't know what I wanted to do. What was next? I called the head of our international department. So we're talking about a young 20-year-old just reaching out to a guy randomly not calling their admin. And I went into the, probably about 60 days later, he reached out to me and said, do you want to join my team? So I worked in international for a couple of years, continued that networking process, and I had RBS call me and I went there and I worked for Domestic and International Treasury. Spent some time at RBS still, I felt like I was getting stuck there, didn't know what to do next, and that's when KeyBank reached out. So I started working with key bank's, global trade business there. And as they were trying to develop and grow their payments business, they knew my background because again, I spent time networking internally and externally. They reached out and now I am in the payments world. I started up in just a general sales role and kind of grew into the role that I'm in today, leading teams, managing numerous verticals.

Kate Fitzgerald (06:37):

Great overview. Elena, go ahead.

Elena Whisler (06:42):

Hi, good morning everyone. My name's Elena Whisler. I'm the Chief Client Officer at the Clearing House where we process all the payment transactions for the country across aach, H wires, check image, and real-time payments. My career, it's a straight shot up. I don't know, just kidding. And I can talk later about it. It's always in hindsight, it's a wonderful, it makes sense. And then during the process, you have no idea what you're doing maybe half the time. So I started my career as an economist actually at the Federal Reserve, and I was always fascinated with payments, but from an economic stability, monetary policy perspective. And then my career is really focused in hindsight, seen it, getting more detailed into how actually payments work, how money moves, and into my career as I got deeper into it, actually elevated me. So the more I knew, the more I could manage and oversee. So I've joined the Clearing House four years ago and been running the industry function and all the clients, and it's been a fascinating journey so far.

Kate Fitzgerald (07:55):

Okay. I hope everybody's mic works. If your level doesn't work, just grab the mic because right now we're in kind of like that tribal thing where we have the talking stick.

(08:05):

But that's good. We don't interrupt each other, which is, you've got to watch that with me. So obviously one of the things about payments, what you guys have just touched on is the variety of roles that you had available in your career path, unlike perhaps banking where things are a little more, at least traditionally, these pathways, I'm on this track, people come out, there used to be training programs. You'd get on a training program and you sort of knew, oh, this is my career map. I've never really seen that in the payments industry, and maybe it's something that will evolve. Judith, do you want to talk to us about why that mindset, the training program, the looking for that next promotion might not be the best way to go if you're in the payments industry?

Judith McGuire (08:52):

Yeah, a couple of things come to mind. One of the things with my team, I have a lot of career conversations, and certainly people are very focused on the next promotion, and that's typically how the conversation starts. But one of the experiences I've had over time as I was kind of contemplating my next moves was I wanted to step back and really understand a little bit about what would make me happy in my next move. Because I think many in titles work for a while to keep you happy, but you need to kind of find fulfillment. You're in these roles for a lot of hours a day. And so I did a lot of work trying to understand what was and identify what is my value, what are my core values, and then how do they play out in the office and what kind of characteristics of a work environment would align with my values and then thus kind of keep me in a much happier state, really satisfied with my role.

(09:58):

And I think that's an important exercise. The first panel, Liz touched on it a little bit this morning about passion as well, but it is really finding roles and you can find lots of different roles within one company. Different areas might have different personalities, different ways they work to find something that really aligns with your values. That's kind of for me, an important conversation to have with folks. I would say the second conversation as people talk about next moves is to really think quite deliberately about whether you want to be a generalist or a specialist. And so this idea of saying you may have a passion for a type of role, an operations role, a customer facing role, and that you can stay in that channel. And I think that Kate was a little bit about what you were talking about with this tightly managed progression that you see in banks.

(10:53):

I want to be a retail banker, a lender, or whatever, and I think that's perfectly fine. Another choice is to be more of a generalist. So you have take laterals, you get broader experience. Either one is a great option. You just have to figure out not the consequences, but one has probably put you in line for fewer opportunities going forward, but you stay in your passion. And one, you're a generalist, you may look like a good candidate for a broader range of roles, but that may take more lateral moves to get that generalist knowledge. So a couple of things for folks to think about.

Kate Fitzgerald (11:32):

Excellent. So Chelsea, you had kind of hit on the fact that your career had a lot of different pivotal moments in intersections. Tell us the strategic moves that you made in order to keep advancing. Are there some pivots and intersections you don't want to take? How do you navigate that?

Chelsea Puckett (11:53):

Yeah, I think for me, pivotal moments in my career probably have been just adjusting and maturing in my career. So as I don't know why I'm this, I think as I've grown and changed, I think recognizing at the point where I changed from being a doer and being in the middle of everything to the point where I became a leader that was super pivotal for me and adjusting my mindset to building up other people and maintaining a team versus having to be doing all of the work and all of those things. So again, I had a great opportunity to build a team that definitely strategically, I think strategically when you make that move, you can look at the candidates that you're interviewing and you're not wanting to be the smartest person in the room. You're want to hire other people that can help your team grow so that you can kind of move up and lead the way you need to and make other adjustments to how making the jump to being an executive, being more a senior level person. And I think if you don't notice that you could get stuck in just doing the work versus hiring the right people to help you get those things done and then being able to move forward.

Kate Fitzgerald (13:12):

Well actually are there some jobs you don't want to take? How do you know if a certain job might be sort of a dead end or a cul-de-sac?

Chelsea Puckett (13:22):

Well, for sure, I think that when you're sitting at the table, and for the first part of my career, it was definitely a lot of taking. So I was just doing what was given to me versus being able to stand up and say, this is not what I want to do. And then being able to have a voice to say, I think this is the direction that I need to go. But again, going back to the team that you build, you can build a team that can take the things on that you don't necessarily want to go in the direction of and kind of build your own future out. And again, I'm about to make some decisions, so I think that I'm just kind of entering into some of that, but being able to recognize the things that you want and try to move forward based off of where your passion is, I think is super important.

Kate Fitzgerald (14:06):

That's an interesting theme that you're not going to thrive if you're not enjoying what you do, if you don't feel motivated. So Yaminah, you're working away. You obviously were a master networker in your overview, but in that process, what were you telegraphing to the people around you and how did that change and help your career advancement?

Yaminah Sattarian (14:30):

Yeah, I mean, like I said before, I think network is extremely important. You have to build a network, you have to build advocates around you, and you have to be very clear and concise about what you want. Opportunities are just not going to come forward just because they know you or they like you unless they truly understand what it is that you're looking for. And you have to have goals that are strategic in the sense of you're talking about your short-term goals, you're talking about your long-term goals and the network you build is not necessarily just people that are within your organization. I look to the outside too, and I also surround myself around, what I always say is surround yourself with people that you think are smarter and better than you because it helps you rise as well within what you're trying to achieve. And it also puts you in a position where when there's opportunity out there, they're thinking of you. They remember your voice because somebody else is out there voicing what they want and what their needs are. And when opportunities arise, those are the people they're thinking of.

Kate Fitzgerald (15:27):

Can you dig down a little deeper on that articulating things? I mean, I think most people think they're telling people, I'm here, I want to do more. Can you be more specific about do you really need to, do people need coaching on that? Is it something you had to learn?

Yaminah Sattarian (15:43):

Absolutely. It was definitely something that I had to learn because I think it's one of the things that I always say is that I was very good at saying what I didn't want early on in my career, but I was not good at saying what I really wanted and where I wanted to be in my role. I just assumed that because I was working really, really hard and I was doing well in my current role that I would be chosen next. So instead, I really spent time not only talking to my existing leadership, but other people that are maybe two levels above them kind of describing where I want to be, what my aspirations were. I was very clear about it, and I think that's what helped when I sat back and just really thought that I would get it just because of my performance, that really hurt me.

Kate Fitzgerald (16:25):

Great. Okay. So Elena, there is this idea, we talked about how everybody's career wasn't actually a rocket ship to Mars, and there are these moments when maybe you're treading water. Is there anything about that that can be a positive?

Elena Whisler (16:42):

Oh yeah, absolutely. So we were chatting about this a little bit. We share a passion of running and doing things. So I use running as a great example of how to also navigate my job and my career as well as my kids. I basically use it everyone all the time to help me be a better self. But in running, if you're an athlete or you walk or whatever, there's moments where you don't want to go run, you don't want to do anything. You don't want to leave the door. You feel like crap, but there's a reason for it. And so sometimes just taking a moment and figuring out why you feel that way or why you might be plateauing actually helps you get to the next level. So it's hard, but you kind of need to enjoy that moment of being in stuck, for lack of a better term, to figure out why.

(17:34):

So are you not learning anymore? Are you not around people that push you? Are you not in an environment that hits? I talk about Impact and North Star, so you've got to kind of assess a little bit and then you take responsibility for pushing and going to the next level if that's something you want. There's moments in time where I need the stability, I need the base to figure out what that next is. And so I need a little bit of moment of I'm going to be kind of stuck in the mud and just churn through it in order for me to get perspective of what actually do I need to do next. So it kind of brings that to light a lot.

Kate Fitzgerald (18:16):

So because you can't always control your career, there are times when if you're stuck there, it's a time of gathering your strength contemplating.

Elena Whisler (18:24):

Yeah, I guess I would say you can always, well, I feel not getting stereotypes here, but I feel like you are in control of your career and you take those moments to figure out what you can control to then make changes for, and that might be staying in the job that you're in because in a year or two, something's going to shift, and so you take advantage of that shift at that time. You don't need to always do things now. You need to kind of plan for when things happen and shifts happen for that to open the door for you. And maybe I'll touch on what you said because I'm super impressed with how you've done a lot of your work, championing yourself two levels above or around you of what you want, and being clear about it is really hard. I mean, I know some people do it really well. I do not. So I usually work really hard for that to shine, but finding those gaps and opportunity when the time is right, being patient at the right time is really important I feel.

Kate Fitzgerald (19:26):

That's some really valuable stuff. It's complicated because as you said, you're driving your career, no one can tell you when it's time to make those moves. So Judith, who works at Discover, it's a huge organization. Now, if you're in a smaller company like Spay where Kathy Beardsley is, I get the feeling, I think she's got under a hundred employees. I feel like there's a lot of opportunities to shine. But if you're at a company that has thousands of employees and you're just one of many, how do you map your career and when you feel like you might be just one in, you're invisible, what can you say about career opportunities at bigger companies versus smaller companies?

Judith McGuire (20:09):

So at Discover, I would say there are tons of career opportunities and you can really, because it's such a big broad organization, you can move from banking to issuing to network and get a really broad base of experience and really navigate a lot of different opportunities across the organization. One of the things that we are very focused on at Discover is de and I, and as a result, that has really kind of changed how we are posting roles and hiring for roles. So a lot less of the tapping people and a lot more of making sure that we post roles, we give people an opportunity to apply for those roles, and we get diverse slates of candidates for those roles and diverse interviewees or interviewers for those roles. And that is resulting in a much more diverse candidate pool and then employee workforce. So all of that said it is important. I think a theme maybe is about navigating your own career. What we are encouraging people to do is, yes, it's a big company, but that means there are lots of jobs that get posted, lots of opportunities post, pay attention to what's available, don't wait for somebody to tap you because we're not doing that as much. And really be aggressive about navigating your career and posting into those areas that are of interest to you.

Kate Fitzgerald (21:34):

Okay. Chelsea, I want to ask you something different. We had talked about people have alluded to kids and running and balancing things. When you are trying to do it all, as many men and women are these days, what can you talk about where you have to set priorities and when you have to decide what you're not going to do in order to move ahead in your career? Can you talk a little bit about some of the sacrifices that you might have to make along the way?

Chelsea Puckett (22:07):

Sure. So I would say balance is kind of, I love this question. There's no such thing as balance. I think we all have to define that for ourselves and define what our priorities are. I think when we talked originally, we talked a little bit about, there's a TED talk that I saw a long time ago, and he talks about you're juggling all these balls and there's glass balls and then there's rubber balls, and you have to decide what are your glass balls that you cannot drop? What is important to you that if you drop this ball, it's going to shatter? You could maybe put it back together, but it'll never be the same again, versus the balls that you can drop that will bounce back to you. And so I think as a young mother still growing in my career, I work in a world where I work with a lot of men too. And so I do, there are times when I have to make decisions and not do things that they can do all the time. So we can't travel at the drop of a hat and setting some of those limitations upfront that this is the priority and everybody understanding that I think is important, but also working for someone who is supportive of that, right? And of the priorities that you do set, and being able to grow in a company that makes those things the priorities for you also important.

Kate Fitzgerald (23:23):

Okay. I'm going to take things. I'm going to surprise you guys with a question that I didn't prepare you for, and that is, we're talking about all these wonderful things that happened and how you navigated and overcame issues. But I want to talk about do a time when you felt stuck because of someone else or because of a structure in the organization. Each of you, I'm start with Judith. Did you ever feel like there was somebody who was blocking you and how did you get around that or was that actually true?

Judith McGuire (23:58):

I can't think that somebody was deliberately blocking me, but I would say in my opening remarks that I was certainly in a role where I was a successor and that person wasn't going to retire. They weren't ready, they weren't trying to block me, but they were still loving their role and not ready to move on. And so I did need to think quite deliberately about how I wanted to navigate that situation, and did I want to stay as the successor in a role I loved, or did I need to do something different, go sideways to then move up? And that was ultimately the choice I made. And it did put me in a position I think when a couple of years down the road, something opened up, I was ready. And so I think it's inevitable, especially as you get more senior, there are fewer opportunities and you do have to kind of think pretty deliberately about maybe somebody's not blocking you, but there's just nothing sitting obviously open for you. And then how do you navigate that.

Kate Fitzgerald (25:01):

Chelsea, it doesn't have to be something at the higher level. Maybe even at the very beginning of your career, what was a major obstacle when you look back on it and you thought, gee, I thought that was a problem, and maybe it was different than you thought. In hindsight.

Chelsea Puckett (25:16):

I'm trying to think back. I mean, honestly, in my younger career, I think I had a really interesting opportunity to come into an organization that was pretty small but was actively growing. So I was able to kind of latch on to people that really had all the knowledge, and then I just kind of dug in and just took all that knowledge I could, which has given me a lot of opportunities. But I do think it's an interesting position to be in a successor type role where you're looking at someone who maybe is not ready to retire, who hasn't retired or is delaying it and delaying it, and you're not really sure at what point that's going to happen. But I also like the earlier comment about patience and is it the right time? Honestly, I heard you very clearly. I was like, it is interesting, right?

(26:05):

Do you stop and take a breath and just have some patience and do the work that you need to do? And then there's still that opportunity later. So there's definitely lots to think about in all of that, but I don't know that I've necessarily ever been blocked by a person because I'm definitely more of a taker. I think that I just went and got it right if I wanted it. I just made it happen and I dug in and did the work to do it. So up until this point in my career dealing with a succession type situation, I think that that is where, again, having some patience is helpful.

Kate Fitzgerald (26:37):

Well, it doesn't have to be a negative thing either. Yaminah, can you think of a time when you looked around and you thought, I'm not going to go anywhere unless I make a change?

Yaminah Sattarian (26:47):

Honestly, I'm going to touch on the blocked part because my experience was very different and believe it or not, I expected it to be a little different. And I'll give, make it a short story. I'll try to make it short. But at the time, I was in more of a sales role and I was in meetings in Chicago, and I got a phone call from our head of our payments department saying, Hey, are you prepared for the meeting tomorrow with the president of our institutional bank? And I said, what do you mean what meeting? And he said, I figured you weren't told by your leader, you have to be there tomorrow at 8:30 in Cleveland. I was in Chicago and this is what you need prepared. So I had that evening to prepare, and I took a 5:45 AM flight out of Chicago to Cleveland. And when I got there, I went to my boss and she was like, oh, good. I forgot to tell you. We have a meeting this morning and we were going to talk about these items. Well, to her surprise, I was prepared. I did extremely well in that meeting. And that president turned around and said, why hasn't she been in other meetings with me before ?

Kate Fitzgerald (27:54):

Opportunity?

Yaminah Sattarian (27:55):

And at that point, yes, that was the pinnacle of my career.

Kate Fitzgerald (28:01):

 Actually, who was the person who called to alert you to this meeting?

Yaminah Sattarian (28:04):

It was the head of our payments business that called me at that.

Kate Fitzgerald (28:07):

Did he know you were unaware?

Yaminah Sattarian (28:10):

He said his exact words was, I figured you weren't told.

(28:14):

So, he kind of felt that there was some reservations where, and it was a female manager that I had at the time. He felt that maybe she was intimidated by who I was and how well I was networking internally and building my way up. And she was trying to prevent me from showing well.

Kate Fitzgerald (28:30):

Now I'm going to jump in to give a story. And this is, I'm not a corporate, I'm a journalist, but I've had very few opportunities to be blocked. But I know that I'm talking to other people about the art of getting by and getting around people who don't like you or who don't recognize your skills. And at one time in Chicago, I had someone who was stealing my mail, and this person was important. She was the assistant to the executive editor, and I had a lot of interesting mail. I covered the advertising and marketing industry, and I was getting things like boxes of all the happy meals that McDonald's was about to unveil at the time of Beanie Babies. So there were things, people are always looking, what'd you get? What'd you, anyway, I couldn't attack this problem because I couldn't say, stop stealing my mail because this would backfire on me, and I didn't know this person, so I had to go over to her desk and befriend her and took her out for tea at the Ritz Carlton and got her on my side and solved that problem. But I think many people that I've talked to, they don't disclose these things, but if you're serious about your career, you can't let something little like that get in your way. Elena, can you talk a little bit about how you approach tricky situations that could get in your way of advancement?

Elena Whisler (29:52):

Yeah, I mean, I think similar. There's been a few occasion. In a previous company I was in, it was definitely a culture of you need to be seen and you'll do anything to be at the table in discussions or presentations, regardless if it's you're the best person for it. So there's been a few times where I've had wonderful allies in the organization that are kind of your eyes and ears and are there to poke. And there's some times where I prepared the material and gave it to a person to present. I couldn't be there or I wasn't allowed to be there. And then there are other times where I happened to be in the city at the same time as a meeting and was able to present and prepare. So to me, the underlying theme in those cases, whether you're purposely blocked or not, I think most of the time you're not purposely blocked.

(30:52):

They're not thinking about you, they're thinking about themselves. And so it's not personal, it's more of them. You kind of get over that part and then you're like, okay, and your allies and your village, I'm going to call it my village, whether it's in my personal life that supports my kids when I'm on the road or whatever. Those are the people that will be there for you. You're there for them, and it goes back and forth. So that's kind of how I've navigated where I don't feel like I'm represented correctly and my village will take care of me.

Kate Fitzgerald (31:24):

I love the village. That's different than, that sounds a little more closer to home than the network. But Judith, actually, speaking of networking, how about obviously if you move up in an organization, you have learned how to make people, you've learned how to work within that organization. Have you got any advice for younger women who are coming out of school who have a vision of, there's a sense I want to rise quickly.

Judith McGuire (32:00):

I think I would go back to what I mentioned earlier, which is figure out what is an environment that will help you thrive. Because when you are thriving, you will do well and be more successful and focus on those types of things versus just getting from point A to point B. I was also intrigued to hear a little bit on the panel this morning about remote work and the importance of networking, especially if you are remote and finding ways to really build relationships quite deliberately instead of maybe if you're in an office, it can just be somebody that you naturally gravitate to or you're working with. I think it does take some extra work if you're remote, to really network and make sure people have a good view of the work that you're doing. So I think those are a couple of pieces of advice I would give to anybody early in their career. And then probably the third is a classic one, which is try and navigate yourself to projects that are high profile projects, like try and find ways to get a platform. The historical way in my experience to do that is to try and get onto projects that are pretty high profile. So those are a couple of tidbits I would provide.

Kate Fitzgerald (33:18):

And Chelsea, maybe just another twist on networking. What about networking these days in the payments industry as a female in what was a male dominated industry? What do you see happening?

Chelsea Puckett (33:31):

I mean, I think that there's plenty of females in FinTech now. I think it's, we're starting to see more females at senior levels for sure. I see a lot of them in operational and compliance roles. So it seems still that it's very much that women are kind of dominating the get in and get stuff done type of roles, which I think is awesome. That's what we do. But no, I think that it has evolved. I think it's growing up, it's an industry that's still fairly new, but it's definitely growing up. And I think there's definitely plenty of space for any female that wants a role out there. As far as managing relationships. I mean, I have tons of relationships with FinTech partners and payments industry wise, I think it's good.

Kate Fitzgerald (34:23):

Yeah, there is this question on working within a network, how do you expand your network? I mean, you build your people, and we talk about the village, so you've got your people, but how do you know maybe you are in the wrong village? Wouldn't that be a path that you could get stuck in or not move ahead as the organization changes around you?

Yaminah Sattarian (34:48):

Yeah, I mean, I think that's why I mentioned you have to look at people outside of just not within your organization and also other industries too. I spend time with individuals with nonprofits, and I will say, I mean, there's one gentleman that I spend a lot of time with. He runs a nonprofit called Heal Palestine, and it's really focused on really helping injured children. And to me that's so important because it really helps bring me down to the ground when I get upset about things that may have not happened for me in a career standpoint. I think to myself, well, you know what? I'm not saving injured children and I'm not. It's a job and it's very, very important, but there's other things that we could be doing that really help ground you. So I think looking outside, looking at other organizations, looking at nonprofits, things that are very, very different than your existing career path to help round you, I think that puts you in a better position to really succeed regardless.

Kate Fitzgerald (35:44):

Okay. I'm jumping around to topics. I want to make sure we get all kinds of different perspectives. But Elena, on the question of staying at an organization and moving around. Traditionally in banking, you built your village and you had more skills, you moved up. But when do you know whether, and this may not be true for you, but I'm just trying to get some perspectives on people of the idea of jumping from company to company versus developing your career. Some thoughts on that?

Elena Whisler (36:19):

Yeah, I think maybe it goes back to what Judith said. You have to figure out if you want to be a generalist, this is my experience or a subject matter expert in particular. So for me, when I was at a few companies for seven to 10 years, it was decisions to become a more generalist as I moved up my career and there were some generalists that were still within payments that I loved. And then there were some opportunities that I chose to decline because it got me out of payments into more of say, a general manager of multiple business lines that had more than just payments and great opportunities to navigate up. But that wasn't what fulfilled me, so I had to decide to leave in order to do that. So I think it does your career path within an organization, whether big or small does depend on that. For me at least. If that resonated, that fundamental principle of being a generalist across it all, and the company might. So a company in payments focused on payments go be the CEO, right? Within the niche of that. But you still have to do finance management, you still have to do operation, you have to do many things. So it depends what your grounding is in order to do that. And for me, I had to move in order to elevate, but still be a subject matter expert in my field.

Kate Fitzgerald (37:50):

In other words, navigating for yourself based on the best opportunities. So we may, I don't know if anyone has any burning questions, we don't want to end with a, oh, here we go. Burning question.

Elena Whisler (38:00):

I can give you.

Kate Fitzgerald (38:00):

Jump up and just shout it out.

Elena Whisler (38:02):

You can use our mic or we could repeat the question if that's easier.

Kate Fitzgerald (38:07):

Yeah, go ahead. There we go.

Audience Member 1 (38:10):

Thank you. So this is a little bit of a sensitive topic, but there are some people, maybe many people who are in a position to decide promotions. And when they're faced with two equal candidates, a man and a woman, a lot of times they see the woman, especially if she's, I hate to even say this, but of childbearing age as a risk because she might divide her time with family or leave the workforce altogether. And aside from saying, Hey, it's not fair, it's not right, because that doesn't seem to make a difference. What are the arguments you make to change this mindset?

Kate Fitzgerald (39:03):

So she's basically asking, how do you make sure that you're not being viewed as someone who won't have the maximum commitment to this career? If you're a woman, everyone knows you're going to be juggling and trying to do it all, but how do you avoid having that be a perception that gets in your way? Judith, you want to lightning round on that one. We're about to out of time.

Judith McGuire (39:30):

I think at Discover, we have just such great ways that we create diverse candidate pools and diverse decision making about who to hire. And we've got not just the candidates that are diverse, but the people who are doing the hiring who are diverse. So I'd like to think that if women are on the interview panel, that they're not applying that same set of limitations to women that they're interviewing. I'm not personally aware that I can think of that. I also just think generally there's so much more flexibility now, whether it is hybrid or remote working. Great family leave policies. Those things make it much easier for women to navigate and in my experience, what I'm seeing stay in the workforce. So I think hopefully that thinking will continue to kind of fall out of our collective consciousness.

Kate Fitzgerald (40:27):

That's a great way to wrap it up. We're about out of time, but I think Judith is right. We see a lot more opportunities between hybrid work and then these ladies all provided a roadmap for how to drive your own career forward regardless. Thank you very much.

Judith McGuire (40:40):

Thank you. Thank you.