Emerging Payments Tech

Transcription:

Michael Moeser (00:07):

The emerging payments tech session sponsored by i2c. What we're going to be talking about today is recently conducted research that's been sponsored by i2c, and a report will be coming out later in May on this research and you're getting a sneak peek. And we've invited two folks here to provide their perspectives. At the far end here we have Steven Liles, Chief Information Officer at PNC. Welcome Steven.

Steven Liles (00:36):

Great to be here.

Michael Moeser (00:37):

And Jacqueline White President of i2c. Welcome Jacqueline.

Jacqueline White (00:41):

Thank you so much. Happy to be here.

Michael Moeser (00:43):

Alright, so let's just sort of dive into this. So the research that we conducted was back in February of this year. We surveyed 126 leaders, 90% who are manager. Were higher level and 83% were at banks and 17% at credit unions. And we're going to drive through three specific topics. What's driving the demand for new payment technologies? What's the role of faster payment and mobile and what's the expected impact of new technologies? And could we start the timer just so we have a perspective? Not that we don't mind talking, but if we could just start that. So in the research, what we saw when we surveyed the business leaders, 93% said they expect payments business to grow in 2024. So pretty strong growth perspectives. And when we looked at the different types of institutions, the large national banks, the mid-size community and credit unions generally pretty strong perspective. And I'd like to start off with Steven. How does PNC view its payments business? Is it worthy of tech investments for 2024 and beyond? And if so, why?

Steven Liles (01:57):

I'm on the commercial side and we obviously see our payments business is central to serving our customers. I mean, any business of any substance has payments at the center of what they do. And if we don't have a credible offering we're really not going to compete very well in the marketplace. So how do we compete in the marketplace? We have to continue to offer new products, things like Fed now for instance, and continue to enhance due to care and feeding of our existing products. Things as mundane as adopting the new rise O standards that it's not glamorous or sexy, but it can be expensive and time consuming requires investment. One area where we're making significant investment is on the API front. We're finding that more and more that is the way our customers want to interact with us and it opens up a lot of exciting possibilities. It's not, again cheap, but it does require investment. But the possibilities are very, very exciting. We have to meet our customers where they are. And PNCs philosophy around serving our customers on the commercial side is consultative. We solve customer problems. We don't just push products. And having that API toolkit to be able to approach a customer plug into their systems or even plug into the things that they're building to offer their customers is how you help them solve those problems.

Michael Moeser (03:30):

All sound like tech worthy investments. Jacqueline, I'm curious from your perspective, we see the differences here on the chart of the banks and the credit unions based on size. Are you seeing any differences when you go out into the field and you sell products?

Jacqueline White (03:43):

Great question. So I always like to say that banking used to be this place we went to get our cash to write our checks to get a mortgage, whatever. Now banking is a thing we do and there's a lot of really interesting data about demographics and what younger generation versus older generation expect. And we'll talk more about that and unpack what that is and what it means for banks of all sizes. I will say that all financial institutions, whether it's the credit unions, the regionals, super regionals or multinationals have all been on this transformation journey and this digital evolution. So everyone is in a race to update their, as Steven said, their legacy platforms because that's really the key to everything. So whether you're a credit union or a big, what we call tier one logo, everyone is having to look at their back office, their backend systems and modernize and what that means to different organizations differs. And of course it takes a very long time, it's very expensive. I find that customers of all sizes typically underestimate the cost, the length of time and their readiness, right, their organizational readiness.

Michael Moeser (05:04):

Almost every IT project. Right?

Jacqueline White (05:05):

Exactly. That's true. And so you see credit unions, if we go to one end of the spectrum, they're all about that high touch personalized. We know who you are, you know who we are and they're trying to turn that into a digital experience. But really we're finding that all consumers want a high touch digital experience. I want my bank to know that I'm saving for retirement, I'm putting four 20 somethings through graduate school as opposed to my 20 something children who are buying their first homes. And so everybody's on this journey, everybody's on this evolution and that it really comes down to the platforms and the technology on the backend that can enable that transformation and facilitate that high personalization. And that's really what we're looking for. And it really comes down to exactly what Steven just mentioned, that open architecture and open APIs so that all of the backend systems, we've all heard that legacy spaghetti term, nobody wants that. That gets messy. But having that open, architected, unified backend structure so that you can quickly update your technology, you can customize it, you can come out faster with tools and products that will keep your customers satisfied.

Michael Moeser (06:28):

Well, let's keep on that journey part. I like that analogy in terms of thinking about spending priorities because it really comes down to we're on this journey, as Jacqueline said, we've got the spending priorities and here we see three quarters of institutions expect their tech spend to grow in the next 12 months. Fraud and risk is at the top digital technology to improve the customer experience, product and service innovation. And it seems like fraud and risk is that perennial top 1, 2, 3 at almost every organization. And Jacqueline, let me ask, I mean, are we in sort of this arms race? I know you laughed when we had the prep session. I said this arm, it just feels like every step we take, we did the chip and pin liability shift almost 10 years ago and here we are. Fraud has moved now to the online sector. It is like are we ever going to see an end or is this just the perennial.

Jacqueline White (07:26):

We'll never see an end, right? And it is, I like that term. It is an arms race. And so as technology ramps up and increases, so does fraud. The fraudsters get as smart as the institutions do. And that's why artificial intelligence, machine learning is so important. It opens up all kinds of doors for opportunities to serve clients, opportunities to differentiate and distinguish in the market via the tools that you are able to provide. But it also introduces deep fake and all kinds of security and fraud risks. And I, you'll see this throughout our conversation, I think that a lot of what is driving financial institutions of all sizes to adopt certain tools and programs and offerings, it comes down to risk compliance and security because nobody wants to be on the front page of any newspaper with some kind of data breach.

Michael Moeser (08:32):

Definitely.

Jacqueline White (08:32):

That's bad. And so yes, the fraudsters will always be out there. I think they'll get smarter and more astute as our technology evolves and it keeps us sharp that you have to really look for a provider who can have that always uptime and give you peace of mind and comfort that you are going to keep the data secure and keep your end users comfortable and safe.

Michael Moeser (09:01):

Steven, I want to talk about improving the customer experience. This has been the number one two thing that we see when we asked this question in our surveys. And this was even the case before the pandemic when all of a sudden we realized we couldn't drive to the bank and make that deposit. But it's always been there. And my question to you is, are consumers expecting banks and payment providers to provide that Amazon like Venmo, like Apple Pay like experience? We chatted earlier about how Uber changed the whole taxi concept where you're no longer trying to figure out the tip and all that. What if you can't offer it as an institution? What does it mean to your bank?

Steven Liles (09:44):

And I do agree that the pandemic has turbocharged expectations completely. People that were not comfortable or accustomed to interacting, particularly with their bank digitally now don't want to interact with their bank any other way. So having an intuitive, seamless customer experience I think has become table stakes. Now I'd say on the retail side, the good news is at least in my opinion, offerings like Zelle I think actually are competitive with things like Venmo. I personally find it to be straightforward to use. It's not trivial to do a full Zelle implementation, but it's available for banks, it's doable. They can work with partners if they can't offer it. But as we look at things like Zelle or pays for e-commerce, I think that the banks are going to be able to keep up on the retail front. And your question though, obviously depends on who your customer is. Again, I'm on the commercial side and expectations have shifted dramatically on the commercial side as well. Something that I think a lot of people thought was never going to happen. They really didn't think that people working in the treasurer's office or the CFO's office were ever going to really care much about the customer experience. But I think that's been completely reset post pandemic and they also expect a different kind of interaction.

Michael Moeser (11:12):

Jacqueline have thoughts on that?

Jacqueline White (11:13):

Well, I was going to say don't let me cut you off, but I was going to say that really only about 3% of us customers actually go into a bank or a branch. So everything has shifted per the pandemic accelerated that online digital experience. And we've been hearing for a long time about the death of the credit card, but it's really interesting. That really hasn't happened. We have found that about 38% of all transactions still happen with a physical credit card. And about 18% are cash, about 28% are debit. And so again, Steven said customers are expecting that real time, easy, seamless access to their money and their funds anytime any place. And it has to be easy and always up, always functioning.

Steven Liles (12:06):

And I'm actually before we move on, I'm a huge believer in the embedded finance concept. We talked about APIs earlier and I think one of the best ways banks end up playing here is by having a robust suite of APIs and being smart about who they choose to partner with and who they choose as customers. Because you can do a great job providing a great customer experience if you have a large corporate customer who you allow to provide their own customer experience and plug into your banking capabilities, just plug them into what they want to offer or again, what they want to offer to their customer. And no one has a, no one's cornered the market on innovation. The best thing you can do is allow as many brains as possible to be thrown at these problems.

Michael Moeser (12:56):

Well, let's stay on that experience element. We talk about what is the role of faster payments, what is the role of mobile technologies? And there's this nexus of faster payments, mobile and the customer experience. And the questions that we asked bankers more than six in 10 are using Zelle. And same day ACH four in 10 expect to add Fed. Now 95%, almost everybody said faster payment technology is very important or somewhat important for CX. And so when I look at these numbers, and I look a little history here, Zelle and the Clearing House RTP both launched in 2017, same day ACH in 2016 Fed Now just this past July. These are big adoption numbers for new products. Are your customers demanding these products? What happens if you can't deliver faster payments? Are you going to lose that customer?

Steven Liles (13:55):

Our customers are very much, I'm going to start on the corporate side. They're very much demanding these products. The uptake that we have on real-time payments is enormous and we're actively working to provision Fed now. We offer a direct to debit API now to plug to corporate capabilities. But we're finding that this is how many of our large corporate customers want to operate now again, because it turbocharges.

Michael Moeser (14:29):

It's a lot of rails. What they're able rails that you're offering.

Steven Liles (14:34):

It is, it is. And that goes back to the investment question that you asked earlier, but the uptake on these is significant. We're investing in them. And again, it's very much an API first approach this so that people are finding that, again, customers want to embed these things into their back office processes. They find that they can manage their cash a lot better if they don't have mystery float kind of problems. If when I make a payment, the money goes out of the account immediately. If money that comes in comes in immediately, I have a much better idea of what my cash position is, et cetera. Bottom line is I think the smaller banks that can't offer this are going to have a lot of trouble competing for corporate business. I think it's really, it's become table stakes and obviously on the consumer side, people have gotten very much accustomed to splitting the check to being able to pay the local handyman or tradesman immediately, and the tradesman expects to be paid immediately or the person selling girl scout cookies or whatever.

Michael Moeser (15:41):

I like your mystery float comment there.

(15:44):

I'd like to actually have D asked, I had a couple of questions here to ask you, but it just seems so unique because mystery float, I get it at a corporate level where you're probably talking a million dollars or more, but for the average consumer, a couple hundred bucks a mystery float or more.

Steven Liles (16:01):

People get in trouble. They do.

Jacqueline White (16:02):

It matters. It matters. Especially if you take a bank for, I'll just use one for example, Varo Bank, right? And they really market to the underserved community up in New York City. And I was speaking to the CEO there a few months ago and he said, look, for a lot of people, 20 bucks out of your checking account is not an issue, but if you are driving an Uber and you don't have access to fill your tank up, it affects you. And that's a significant, I would say large part of our US American kamaka economy, our people who need real time information, how much money do I have? Somebody just paid me. It's there. I just paid someone. It's gone. And I think that's the mystery float, and I don't really know anybody who wants to think that for 24 or 48 hours, they can't really see how much money they have and they want to believe that it's really accurate.

(16:56):

And that's why this instant payment, real time transactions are so important right now. And I'll just say really quickly that again, we're hearing a lot about the different demographics and how they are looking for different things from banking. I'm finding that gap is really closing. So about 58% of the millennials, the Gen Zs, they expect everything to be online and instant. But even the baby boomers who almost all grew up going into a bank branch, went in to get their mortgage or to maybe get cash once a week, whatever it was, even that demographic, 40% have now moved to that online instant payment. So to answer the very first question that you asked, what happens, I think you lose out. And that is really the race that all institutions of any and every size are in is how do we get to a point where everything available? There's choice and options. If I want to pay point of sale by pointing my device because I've got my Apple wallet set up, whether I want to pay with one click because they've marketed to me on social media and I like that and I want to one click and use PayPal or cash app, whatever it is, those things are more and more important to everybody across the spectrum.

Michael Moeser (18:25):

I think that's a great segue for our next slide, which talks about a mobile first development approach. Sorry, this is a big eye chart here, but basically we want to make sure that people understand what a mobile first design is. The approach is when you're thinking about a new product or enhancing existing product, the bank or the institution is looking at how will it work on a mobile device first. So as Jacqueline pulled out her phone, she's ready to pay for it as opposed to how will it work secondarily, say in an online in-person or that type or telephone, that means the phone there. And so what we found is that at least half of the banks surveyed 60% or more of their initiatives take that mobile first approach. And then the other roughly half do not take as much. There's a very strong sense that as we evolve as consumers, as payments evolves, that the mobile device is going to be a principle or key element. And I'd like to ask you, Jacqueline, because you brought up the generations, why is being mobile first in new product design and service delivery so important? Are we catering to Gen Z and millennials or is it, I think as you said, you're probably going to say this, it's how everybody wants to operate.

Jacqueline White (19:44):

Everybody wants fast and easy and the technology is becoming so straightforward, so streamlined and really easy. Why not? Why wouldn't anybody of any age want to do that? My husband and I just had the interesting experience of taking over the finances for each set of our parents as they're aging. And it was shocking to see as we were setting things up, what their financial institution could or in most cases couldn't do, whether it's remote deposit by taking a picture of a check. I didn't know that was a little shocking. Whether it's the ease of sending out payments once a month to cover their expenses and it was really eyeopening to me to experience it from a consumer side. And as I just mentioned, really that lag of dragging their feet. The baby boomers are on it now. They may be getting older, but they're not dumb and they're certainly capable. And so again, I mean we've said it and I'll repeat it, it's all about the table stakes of giving that freedom of choice in a risk-free, secure environment where customers have the confidence that they can do anything and everything they want from their device and to do it securely and easily.

Michael Moeser (21:06):

Steven, what does that mean for you as the banker here in terms of having large physical assets, having plastic cards, branches, where there's more of it going on the mobile device and whether it's a corporate or consumer, there's in both realms, there's more of a move to that mobile device. Can you still leverage the physical assets and become the backup plan? What are your thoughts there?

Steven Liles (21:33):

Well, I think if you look at what's happened in the market that purely mobile banks have not succeeded particularly well. I mean they're not thriving necessarily. And we actually feel that the most successful strategy leverages all of our assets. Jackie talked about choice. We've all talked about choice over and over, and we obviously feel that having a strong, really robust mobile channel is essential. And we do the mobile banking. Mobile apps are probably the mobile apps that people interact with the most in their daily lives. Once you get past social media, when they're doing real stuff during their day, they probably interact with their banking.

Michael Moeser (22:19):

People would argue TikTok is real stuff, Steven.

Steven Liles (22:23):

Until it's banned.

Michael Moeser (22:24):

My son gets all his moves.

Steven Liles (22:26):

It's real stuff. So we always assume that some or most of our new product offerings and our existing product offerings, our legacy product offerings have to be available in the right way through mobile. But that the existence of our physical assets in no way precludes or hinders that effort. And some people are funny about money, sometimes they just want to talk to a human being. Got it. They want to interact with a person. Some people will never sign for a mortgage without talking to a human.

Michael Moeser (23:02):

What if it's not a person? What if it's gen ai and I'd be remiss not to benefit.

Steven Liles (23:08):

And it feels like a person.

Michael Moeser (23:10):

It feels like a person. I mean when we surveyed banks, half said that they're using or planning to use gen AI for fraud and customer service, 83% said they use it to support some of their payments. You talked about deep fakes, Jacqueline, which we're all very concerned about. And when we look at the top is it was around risk customer service. So there's the customer service element and is this the low hanging fruit for gen AI?

Jacqueline White (23:40):

I mean look, there's certainly AI and machine learning. Learning is going to take us into great advancements, places we can't probably even imagine right now. But I personally agree with Steven. I think that there's always going to be an interest in knowing that you can walk up to your local branch. The teller in my little town in New England, I've known her for 30 years, I like to say hi. We've watched each other's kids grow up. And I think that what I'm seeing now is a need as individuals want to go in and talk about complex fraud disputes. They might want to go in and talk to someone about their financial planning, those kinds of things. Can AI do it? Yes. But I think that for the foreseeable future, there's always going to be.

Steven Liles (24:32):

A comfort component.

Jacqueline White (24:33):

That's right. There's a comfort component of somebody who's real.

Steven Liles (24:36):

Yeah, we've people running businesses, there's a logistical component, right? To the extent if I run a corner hamburger stand or flower shop, sometimes I just need to touch base with a branch or an ATM. I still get checks for people that still want to deal with me in cash and I have to be able to accommodate that operationally.

Jacqueline White (24:57):

So it really comes down to this opening up and offering choice, having the big spectrum of options and choice so that your customers, regardless of their age, their demographic, small business owner, corporate Titan, can do what they want to do with their money the way they want to do it.

Steven Liles (25:18):

JPMC is a pretty smart company and they're opening branches.

Michael Moeser (25:21):

There you go. There you go. Let's move into the last section in the interest of time. What is the expected impact of new technologies? We'll talk about customer attrition, loyalty, fraud, mitigation. Three quarters of the bankers we surveyed say that faster repayments will improve that customer experience, help attract new customers who's next, maintaining and improving the competitive position. And I guess maybe start with you Jacqueline, can you expand on how faster repayments improve the customer experience examples?

Jacqueline White (25:54):

Sure. So at i2c 24-year-old payment processor, we actually have one of our newest customers here. I'm going to put him on the spot, Ray UB of Enter. Are you in the room? So enter is one of the larger banks in Brazil. They have just come on shore, relocated to Miami. We have just taken them live with their friends and family offering. We started talking to them I think back in August. And they are having phenomenal success rolling out this credit tool, instant payments for their Brazilian nationals here in the US. And I mean I can talk with you all day about those kind of examples. And one of the things that I think is really interesting is that customers are very, very attracted to the loyalty and rewards programs. And so those are really differentiating organizations as well. Whether it's tools like a buy now pay later or it's a loyalty reward program like airline points. And I would guess everybody in this room, we all are corporate citizens, we travel somewhat to quite a bit and I like my airline miles and my hotel points and I think everybody else does as well. So those are the kinds of things that are important.

Michael Moeser (27:18):

Thoughts. Steven, any examples in terms of same questions, I guess how does it improve the customer experience?

Steven Liles (27:26):

And again, I primarily represent the corporate side, but it clearly makes running a business easier, moving money instantly in and out as we discussed a little bit, just having more certainty about how much cash you have on hand is significant. And when you start thinking about end customer experience, again from the perspective of the corporate world through our APIs, we are enabling our customers to do all kinds of interesting things like Jackie, you talked about Uber drivers, you talked about shift workers, McDonald's workers, and how the float problem can get them in trouble. You have our APIs powering companies like Daily Pay who's here at the conference that allows for same day or even almost instantaneous payroll. You can work an overtime shift at McDonald's, get paid right now or get paid for your days driving at Uber. And if you need to pay your rent or pick up some medicine, you can do that. And that really makes, it really enables this changes people's people's lives completely. Or to allow a company like U-Haul to push money to someone who's broken down by the side of the road to assist them.

Jacqueline White (28:40):

And then the earlier session we talked about, the green light program was mentioned for those who are sending kids off to high school or to college, we've all gotten that text, right? Oh, my rent is due or I need cash or the car broke down or whatever it is. And so again, you want at your fingertips the ability to meet whatever the financial challenge or goal or initiative is, you want to be able to do it right away in a meeting from your phone.

Steven Liles (29:09):

Our API suite has allowed us to build a whole suite of business to consumer tools to allow say an insurance company in a disaster or the side of an accident to push settlement money to someone immediately in a terrible situation that makes all the difference in the world.

Michael Moeser (29:28):

Now there is a dark side to faster payments that we sort of would be remiss if we didn't talk about the elephant in the room when we asked bankers in terms of are they concerned that faster payments could make fraud easier to commit? 91% said yes. And I think as you can see as you get to the smaller organization size, and certainly we've seen the stories about people sending Zelle and it's money and there's also the first party fraud issue. I guess maybe Jacqueline if you could talk about. What are the types of things, maybe why are smaller banks more concerned about faster payments enabling fraud than larger banks? Is it because they have a cushion or?

Jacqueline White (30:13):

I think it really comes down to two things. It comes down to risk reward ratio. How much is this in demand and is the reward of offering this to our customers worth the risk that comes from it? And then it's about infrastructure, right? Do we have the capability? So sometimes I'm asked why hasn't there been a hundred percent adoption, for example, of ACH transfers? And as we've done the research, as I've talked to executives, it really comes down to these two things. It's risk, reward and infrastructure. Do we have legacy systems that prevent us from offering the technology that facilitates and enables? And is it worth the security risk and all the implications that come from that?

Michael Moeser (30:59):

Steven, what are banks doing to get ahead of this fraud issue? The perspective, I know initially when RTP rolled out, a lot of people were willing to receive but not necessarily send. And so now that we've got senators and receivers, what are banks doing?

Steven Liles (31:18):

They're really leaning into the basics. I would say for the most part, if you look at what fraud looks like, particularly on the commercial side, it's not somebody hacking into say your account and executing a transaction, sending a wire. It's them masquerading as somebody that our customer trusts and then convincing someone within the business who is an authorized user to send money somewhere they shouldn't. And it used to be called social engineering. The AI tools clearly make this much, much easier. You can masquerade via deep fake, you're going to look and sound like the CFO of the company.

Michael Moeser (32:01):

So it's really education you're saying.

Steven Liles (32:03):

You have to educate customers. It's as simple as protecting your email system so that bad guys can't hack in there and send emails masquerading as someone else. And of course, I mean ultimately you have to either convince someone who's a legitimate user to send a payment somewhere they should not, or you have to hack into somebody's account and send the payment on their behalf. So doing the basics around authentication authorization, having workflows that have multiple sets of eyes approving things that's just table stakes, that would stop much of the fraud and educating customers on what they can do on their side. And of course we can adopt the AI driven tools to do a much, much better job of looking for fraudulent patterns. We can look for things that don't smell right, that don't make sense, an account destination for a wire from a company that seems to have nothing to do with that company and stop that.

Michael Moeser (33:06):

That's interesting you mentioned that because in our last slide we asked the question of are banks concerned with AI making it easier for people to commit fraud? And 85% there somewhat are very concerned. And so I guess, are there specific guardrails or is that what you were talking about in terms.

Steven Liles (33:23):

That's sort of what I was starting to drift into I guess is just the AI tools themselves really allow this turbocharging of impersonation. It used to be sort of hard to figure out enough about a company to send a convincing email even to someone to fool them into sending the next wire to another destination. Now you can use Gen AI to scour the entire internet and build a profile of a company and do a really good job. You can even generate the email at scale and blast it out to a thousand companies. So there used to be sort of a bespoke activity that skilled fraudsters had to engage in. And even then the emails were goofy sounding sometimes and had grammatic language.

(34:10):

Now they were craft these beautiful emails that literally sound like they could come from that company. And of course the next step in the arms race is getting on a video call and looking and sounding exactly like somebody you're scared of at your company who's ordering you to send an immediate wire to this account number. So we are definitely worried about it, but as I said, these same tools can be empowers the bad guys. It also empowers the good guys and we can use these tools to look for patterns, to look for things. And we can do basic things like offering associated tools with our payments offerings when we empower companies, something as simple as an account verification, API that you plug into their payments process that kind of glows red. If the account doesn't seem to have anything to do with who you say you're sending the money to, you can stop the payment flag that and alert the customer and say, are you sure you want to send this? That kind of speed bump alone could stop 90% of this.

Michael Moeser (35:12):

Well, let's see if the audience has any questions. We have a question over here before we wrap up.

Audience Member 1 (35:22):

A lot of us work at large companies where there's great training available. In fact it's not just available, it's required.

(35:35):

I was saying a lot of us work at large companies where there's training required not just thorough, I literally have to pass a test to get it off my required list. But you mentioned dealing with two sets of parents that had passed and I think about my parents all the time and I see text messages coming in, that sounds so real, but I know because of the training that it's not real that I'm being scammed. And you mentioned it's important that we educate our customers. How do you reach them? How do you reach those customers that are not necessarily as technologically savvy?

Steven Liles (36:23):

I mean, it really is an intense, almost kind of charm offensive, I guess, and education campaign. Sometimes it helps to share with them, I don't want to use the term horror stories, but stories of what can happen if you are a large corporate, you can lose tens of millions of dollars if you are compromised in this way. And it's very, very simple things that open the door for these companies. So I'm fortunate on the corporate side it can be a very formal, we have a smaller number of higher value customers. We have relationship managers that interact with them directly. So to lobby them, to implore them, I guess to think about these things becomes, becomes easier. You literally have someone you can pick up the phone and talk to. On the consumer side, it's harder. But I think just good digital information, it has to be digitally driven, baked into the apps, baked into your mobile app when you're, and just really good tools on our side too. You don't want to be intrusive, but if the AI is good enough, you can alert somebody to something in a way that doesn't feel too big, brother-ish that this looks a little funky. You might want to take another look. I guess it's all about speed bumps, little speed bumps to stop people from just hurtling off a cliff.

Jacqueline White (37:50):

Just really quick. So the motto in our family, we're teaching our college age kids as well as our aging parents. Always be suspicious, right? Because if your financial institution wants to get in touch with you, they will. And you don't have to provide them information over the phone or click on the link in the text, always be suspicious. And then secondly, I think that partnering with companies with software providers, platform providers who have a good record and reputation around fraud is key. I know at i2c, we offer standard and premium fraud capabilities to all of our customers and businesses. And I think that, the good guys and the bad guys are always going to be around. The bad guys aren't going away. So we have to use technology on our side, educate ourselves and be ready. I think with the, well not to go down that we could talk all day about artificial intelligence, but I think that it's going to give us more benefit than it does risk.

Michael Moeser (38:56):

Well, as we're out of time, we're in that red zone. I'd like to ask our two participants to provide say 32nd closing thoughts and maybe we can start with Steven and then Jacqueline can do the final thoughts for this session.

Steven Liles (39:13):

I just think this is an incredibly exciting time for the payments business, really for banking as a whole. But the payments in particular, there's a lot happening now and I think I get excited every day as we API enable our payments capabilities and we expand our payments capabilities, particularly the instant ones, and start to turbocharge what we're able to offer with AI. I think we're going to plug into a much bigger ecosystem and unlock all kinds of creativity. And I think the daily pay example we gave, there are hundreds of potential examples, things we have not even dreamed about or thought about that are going to blossom everywhere and make life better for the average person on the street. And that's what it's all about.

Michael Moeser (39:57):

Jacqueline, final thoughts.

Jacqueline White (39:59):

Really quickly. I'll just echo what Steven said. It is an extremely exciting time to be in payments who knew that it would get so exciting and that there would be so much potential and opportunity and not just for payments, but all that payments touches that entire ecosystem. And so I think it's going to be an exciting five to 10 plus years. And I think there's enormous opportunity not only for financial institutions of any size, but for all of us as consumers. And I think we're going to have a lot of fun gathering together regularly and talking about it.

Michael Moeser (40:32):

Well, thank you Jacqueline White and thank you Steven Liles, and thank you to the audience for joining today's session. So thank you. Thank you.