Customer Experience: Personalization Takes Center Stage

In this roundtable discussion, banking leaders and industry visionaries will explore the future of customer experience (CX) in banking. In this new era, personalization takes center stage, as financial institutions strive to tailor their services to meet the unique demands of an increasingly diverse client base of consumers and businesses. 

We'll also examine the role of technology catalysts, such as AI and embedded finance, in facilitating this shift towards a more inclusive and customized banking experience. This session promises to offer a fresh perspective on how to create more meaningful and engaging experiences that drive deposits and strengthen customer loyalty.


Transcription:

Peter Renton (00:10):
Compliment of speakers in the room. Let me introduce myself. My name is Peter Renton. I was Chairman and Co-Founder of FinTech Nexus until Friday of last week. I'm now a free agent. It's a long story, which I won't bore you with, and I'm going to be the moderator of this session today and we now have our full compliment of speakers. John, why don't you introduce yourself first?

Jon Briggs (00:35):
Absolutely. Jon Briggs, I lead Product and Innovation for the commercial side of the business at KeyBank, which is principally our payments business. So we serve everybody from the small business down the street all the way up to Fortune 200 companies operating globally.

Peter Renton (00:53):
Okay. Christopher, tell us where you were and what did you do?

Christopher Hollins (00:58):
We were in the wrong room, although we did have all of the information to be in the correct room. Christopher Hollins, I'm at Silicon Valley Bank, which is a division of First Citizens Bank. I am Head of what we call Product Sales Delivery, and now Design. We primarily focus on the innovation economy. My goal with my team is to ensure that our bankers who are primarily tremendous lenders and lend debt also ensure that they become clients of the bank and clients of the bank, includes all the things that John talks about. By the way, Carol Wang says hello. All the things that John's team does as well as we are diving into embedded payments and trying to make the user experience a golden thread through everything we do.

Peter Renton (01:52):
Okay. Well let's get right into it and let's talk about personalized customer experiences. This is sort of the theme for our session today. So why don't we just kick it off with sort of painting a broad picture and Christopher, I'll go with you first of how your bank thinks about personalized customer experiences.

Christopher Hollins (02:18):
Yes. I think for so long Silicon Valley Bank as an organization over 40 years before being acquired was always focused on how do we inject personalization into that founder's experience with banks because their primary experience has been through branches and depending on whether the RM two or three that's in that branch knew a lot they could or they would or would not be able to provide them with the appropriate kind of tools and ability. So that's kind of where we started. Today we are moving from an older digital platform into SVV Go. We've won a couple of awards, less important for this. More importantly, we spent a lot of time user testing and ensuring the experience for those users made sense, such that when they are waking up at four 18 in the morning and need to do something, we've already thought through with them what that experience needs to look and feel like, such that they are getting the way our brand thinks about itself as being personalized and ensuring that that shows up in our digital aspect.

Peter Renton (03:31):
Interesting, interesting. So what about at KeyBank?

Jon Briggs (03:35):
Yeah, KeyBank, I would say banks for the longest time have done a great job and I'm speaking from the commercial side of the house of being very relationship oriented, centering relationship around a relationship manager who then brings the entirety of the bank. Increasingly in this new digital age, banks need to adapt and bring the technology, the digital experience that help augment that relationship model. And so for us at KeyBank, we attack in a couple of different ways. We do it by partnering with some of the leading fintechs in the space that are out there, laser focused on a certain niche industry that's really important to us and aligns with our strategy. So we like to partner with those companies, bring them to market and bring software like capabilities to our clients to help them power their businesses. We also try to get banking out of our proverbial four walls.

(04:35):
So increasingly clients don't want to sit in their native ERP or whatever SAAS platform they're using to run their business and then separately go into their banking portal to do their banking every day. They expect those things to be singular, and so we've spent a lot of time at Key, we call that embedded banking, and that is just about doing that, getting banking out of our four walls natively to where our clients are doing the work. And we do that in two ways, bringing capabilities like APIs, ERP, plugins, things like that to our commercial clients or powering the platform economy, so FinTech SAAS companies that are building some of those very, very targeted workflows and solving some of our client's biggest friction points.

Peter Renton (05:24):
So let's talk about challenges and maybe Chris, we'll go over to you and talk about the challenges in having a personalized customer experience that is fully digital. What are some of the key challenges that you've had to overcome?

Christopher Hollins (05:43):
Well, I think one is to not replicate what most states do when they basically move from horse and buggy to automotives. What they basically did was pave all of the horse trails and those became county roads. If you think about any state you live in, especially in a smaller state and you're in the northeast, every road kind of winds around and what you find out is that in the 17 hundreds, this used to be the major thoroughfare for horse and bug bugs to go through and they just paved over it. They didn't actually think through what it needed to be. Now that you have cars that can drive 50 miles an hour where a horse could literally not do more than 15. So what we try to do in opposite of that is to step back into what the design experience is for digitization, make certain that all the processes that need to be accounted for regulatory purposes because the bank wants to manage its risk, all of those are accounted for. But stepping back and saying, can we do that with a digital lens and not just replicate the paper form process of going into a branch? It does take longer for us to do that, but we also recognize that as a bank for the innovation economy, we're supposed to be thinking through those things and not just papering over or in this case I guess putting blacktop on the old road.

Peter Renton (07:11):
Okay. Okay. It's a great analogy. So then John, let's talk about control. If you think about a personalized experience that sort of implies that the user has some control over their experience, how are you putting clients in control of their own experience?

Jon Briggs (07:32):
Sure, and maybe to draft off of Chris's comments, I think one of the challenges you often run into when you try to draw that straighter line from point A point B is you realize that you're operating within a bank that's been built in key bank's case over 200 years, and so there's a lot of legacy infrastructure, there's a lot of legacy processes that surround that infrastructure and digitizing it. When you go to digitally enable that to be able to be consumed by your client to power their client's experience, you soon learn about all those different friction points that exist either in that technology or that process. So I think what's important to do is to truly put your client at the center, walk a day in their shoes and start to think about the experience from front to back. And that's about innovating not only in the glass right in front of the client in terms of what they're going to touch, feel, interact with every day, but then pulling that back all the way through your back office, your risk processes, your operational processes, your post go live servicing experience, because those are the moments actually that matter and your clients feel the least in control.

(08:55):
So I think that's critically important.

Peter Renton (08:58):
So why don't we, Christopher, I'd love to get your just take on that as well and well, obviously we all had digital processes, right? I mean, sorry, manual processes before we digitized, there was very few digital processes 50 years ago, let's just say

Christopher Hollins (09:17):
Try 17 years ago.

Peter Renton (09:19):
Exactly, exactly. So how should banks be thinking about it and how do you think about it at SVB where you are not just digitizing manual processes?

Christopher Hollins (09:33):
I think we recognize it because almost every adult carries around a computer in their pocket they have and an expectation of what it means to be digitally enabled. I'll give an example of this and I won't bring up the brand, but just say that I got here at 3.45 this morning because a series of delays, if you were on that flight, I feel bad for you too, but the process to actually figure out where the pilots were, why they timed out, all of that stuff, that would've naturally been frustrating and going to the desk and use the analogy of going to the branch that I was able to have a text conversation as they were figuring out things on a plate. I sat there calmly as people were literally mad and stomping off with their bags to get in line to hopefully move to another flight, which by the way, to come to this to conference was not possible.

(10:27):
You needed to go to Jacksonville to get here, which is too far away. If I now pull that back into what we're doing from a banking perspective, we know that things are going to happen. We know that there will be a situation where a wire won't be sent to the right place, will know we'll need to do an extra check. Someone is blurry eye, they're working on the thing that they have passion around. They don't recognize that they actually should be doing a sweep in the next two days. Those are the things that we have enough experience from enough founders and innovators, we have enough use cases to start to play with. How does that need to show up in our digital journey and ensuring that that fully gets tested, which is the piece that we've really been pushing with the design team that I just inherited.

Peter Renton (11:16):
Right. Okay. So I want to switch gears a little bit and you touched on it John. I want to talk about the banking as a service embedded finance. I know you guys are doing a few things there at key banks. So what are you doing and how are you, I mean obviously there's been a lot in the news lately about banking as a service. None of it good, so you don't need to comment on that, but what are you doing in this space?

Jon Briggs (11:46):
Thought we were going to nix this question. No, it is. So we've been at this now at KeyBank for three years, having a very dedicated focused strategy. Everything from front end sales, product engineering, customer service, everybody organized around this concept of delivering banking into our client's workflows or powering, helping power the platform economy. So with that, three years ago we had a very limited set of APIs at the bank that could be consumed externally. Fast forward to today, just about every service that we offer on the payment side can be consumed via API as well as some of the important events that happen around a payment or a transaction that are important to the service experience. We've also invested in just that the servicing complexities that come with powering a platform are immense. At the end of the day, these companies, they're making a buying decision not just around the economies or the commercials you give around the payment, but they're making a choice around a bank, your philosophy around customer experience, the technology you have around to enable that, and I think that's one of the most critical parts of the strategy and oftentimes overlooked, especially for companies that are maybe just getting into financial services.

(13:27):
We're also doing things around innovating around things like the operating account banks. I'm not sure if anybody's heard, but deposits are kind of important for banks these days and we think operating accounts is something that hasn't really been innovated around in a while. And so we just launched a phenomenal new capability, which is a modern operating account called qva or key virtual account management that we're really excited about, but it's all designed in an effort, again, to put choice and control in our client's hands for them to be able to power the experiences they want to power.

Peter Renton (14:12):
Right. Yeah, there's a lot of innovation that I think is brewing in that area right now. So Christopher, SVB, what are you doing in the banking as a service slash embedded finance space?

Christopher Hollins (14:26):
Yeah, we'll talk a little bit about that, but before I say that, what I am kind of struck by is that one of two things is going on. Either John and I had some kind of mind meld over the last three years or so, or we're speaking to the same two consulting firms because I basically can just suggest everything that John said we are doing. We've been doing it for a little bit longer. We are probably in our 11th year working with FinTech and embedded payments companies. Where we are in our maturation is that we wanted to build it all ourselves. We just had the hubris or the vision, depending on which way you want to take that, to actually drive that ourselves. Then recognizing that the use cases were so diverse and differentiated that it wasn't going to be in our best interest to do that, we'd end up with three or four client categories where we'd be experts and we would be terrible in the rest, and we are not future.

(15:30):
We can't prognosticate the future. So where we've been spending a lot of our time is around collaboration and partnerships, especially around the regulatory pieces because those quickly come to first and there's a lot of change and knowing your customer and how you need to manage that, depending on what administrations are in power, the amount of oversight associated with that varies. So you have to be a lot more nimble and look, we want to be in front of our clients in the right way, but we recognize that regardless of how much budget we put into it, we'll never hire enough experts to always do it right every time and that we have to be able to leverage others to help us do that. We have found success. We've been spending a lot more time on the regulatory stuff than I think anyone would prefer at this point, but we need to get that right because not getting that right basically becomes another demerit from a trust perspective, we've had our own issues with trust in recent years, and so we need to be able to be on point with all of those aspects.

Peter Renton (16:35):
Right. Okay. So I want to talk about vertical SAAS companies because in the last decade we've seen an explosion in almost every major vertical now has its own SAAS platform to provide the technology to help run the business, which I think has been a great thing. And what they have done is they have really developed these, oftentimes it's been an operator that is starting these companies and they've developed them with user experience first and foremost and front and center. What can banks learn from them? Either of you can take it.

Jon Briggs (17:17):
I can kick it off, Chris,

Christopher Hollins (17:19):
I just spoke for four minutes in a row,

Jon Briggs (17:23):
So Chris actually hit on it. The biggest difference between a bank and a vertical SAAS company is, and I hit on it in my opening remarks as well, I have to wake up every day thinking about companies of all shapes and sizes of all different complexities of need operating across a diverse set of industries. And to me, having a partnership model around fintechs or SAAS companies is acknowledging that you can't be everything to everyone. If you compare that to a verticalized SAAS company, they're waking up every day, and I'll use dental as an example in the process of launching a new partnership we're going to have here in the coming months, these companies that are focused at solving some of the biggest friction points in the dental space, they wake up every single day thinking about that dentists, the back office person or the front end, the receptionist working in the dental office, thinking about every workflow that they have to manage the intricacies of dealing with the complex insurance market and the payers involved in the process.

(18:44):
And that's just something a bank can't do in every single industry subsegment. So I look at, you could describe it as it's a great way to outsource technical expertise through a partnership model. So like I said, we like to partner with those companies to help solve our client's problems. We also like to help power those clients because increasingly as an industry, we've long talked about this whole convergence of technology and financial services. I think that's been happening. We've been living that. I think increasingly, and Chris had mentioned this, the consumer expectation, so the fact that we all have a smartphone in our pocket right now is bleeding into the commercial space, and that requires us to think differently, to operate differently, expose our products and services differently to help power those companies because that's going to be the new front door to a lot of banking purchasing decisions that are going to be made.

Christopher Hollins (19:57):
Yeah, I just add by saying we are benefited being in a commercial banking structure and not in consumer because then the basically use cases go up exponentially and we're not having to manage that. There's a different layer of regulatory scrutiny on for consumers versus those are commercial institutions, so we can get some things narrowed down, but they've got to be, I'll use an old terminology, they'll have to be five nines basically bulletproof. These things cannot fail, and so when we're building them, they have to be built correctly. What I see in our similarity to SAAS companies is that they're focused on that part of the problem. We're focused on the reliability portion of whatever transaction we need to facilitate for that client ultimately cannot break. So however we get them to a place where they're going to do an international a CH or they're going to need to do a little bit of effects to hedge against some risks that they have, that has to happen seamlessly where we get graded at the end of the day, there may be some grace given to us by not understanding the nuances of a portion of the FinTech industry, but when it comes to the transaction, there is no quarter given for not doing that correctly.

Peter Renton (21:24):
Right. So do you think of these SAAS companies as distribution type vehicles for your bank or is

Christopher Hollins (21:33):
That They have been, we've had clients as SAAS that are distribution channels. We've had others that we've partnered with. Some of them I'd say we're kind of frenemies on it as well. We would love to be able to just say, this is what we're doing and we're going to put a mode around it. Technology is moving too quickly. There are too many new business models which are appearing for us to be that kind of myopic and the way that we think about how to partner

Jon Briggs (22:13):
The relationship can be complex. It certainly is to Chris's point, they can be partners, they can be competitors, and they can be clients and in some cases they can be all three at the same time.

Peter Renton (22:31):
Okay. So John, when we had our introductory call a few weeks back, you talked about how the personalized customer experiences introduces servicing complexities, which I think is pretty obvious or at least we get that it's going to introduce complexities in all sorts of areas. But you also said that this comes an opportunity for you guys to create a product you can actually sell. Maybe you can elaborate on that. Yeah,

Jon Briggs (23:04):
Absolutely. So the advantage we have as banks is we know all the intricacies of moving money around the globe. What can go wrong? What needs to happen if something does go wrong? Not every transaction is foolproof and payments are very complex. We've been doing this for an awful long time infrastructure around being able to serve our clients. We have scale in being able to do that, and I think it's a phenomenal opportunity for banks to be able to leverage that. Leveraging it though brings in new complexities. So if you're powering a SAAS company, how do you make sure your team knows who they're talking to? They're not talking to, yes, they're a client of the bank legally, but the SAAS company that you sold the service to, they want your folks to behave as though they're their clients. And so it's not answering the phone saying it's 1-800-KEY-BANK.

(24:16):
It also requires you to, we all talk about APIs in terms of being able to execute an ACH or a WIRE. What about service interactions? How do you make sure that SAAS company knows when something's gone bump in the night around one of their clients? They know immediately that it's happened and they know what resolution looks like, what they should expect as far as resolution. So I think it's a phenomenal opportunity for banks. I think banks have done it for many years. They've largely done it pretty well, but it's going to require innovation for banks to make that leap of, I do this for my clients to, I'm offering this as a service to be able to power my clients, and it's something we've been focused on and are excited about.

Christopher Hollins (25:03):
And Peter, if I may add on to that, one of the things that's going to test both keys and CBS First Citizens Bank, most banks claim that we are relationship oriented is what's going on, what John just talked about, because the relationship is not always direct. Sometimes it's two or three levels removed. The expectation is still that you're handling it and that you're making all the parties aware. And if we're just super honest in the financial industry, if banking specifically, we haven't been great at doing that. We don't have a long track record of that. Our track record is person to person, maybe branch to several people. That's where we've been good. So we are going to be tested as an industry to be able to get to this place of that level of understanding, basically being on top of the situation and understanding how to talk to the client about it. And even furthermore, I'd say that because we have all of this digitization, we can't abdicate our responsibility and just say, now it's on you as the client to go handle that because we made it super easy for you. There's still a obligation that we have as a judiciary, a financial institution to handle certain things in a certain way and we have to help people through that transition.

Peter Renton (26:24):
Right. So I want to talk about people, and one thing that you mentioned earlier on our call, Chris Christopher, was that you mentioned the knowledge gap that exists when we're talking about this sort of digital personalization and the need to hire people with this new expertise. Can you just comment about how you're going about that?

Christopher Hollins (26:51):
Yeah, what I'll say is that we have a paradox in the industry, which is the more digitization that we have, the more important that your human experience be top notch. It is a paradox. We keep thinking, we'll digitize everything. We don't need people. It's like no, when people have to come in off the digital highway into the off ramp, they don't expect to basically drive into a briar patch. They're expecting to be handled in the appropriate way. And so you have to have intellectually curious people, people who have to actually study and be advisory so that they can understand how to talk to clients under certain circumstances. They also from, I'll use an IT analogy, you need to be tier three at the first instance. No, no one wants to get past 15 times to handle a problem. So that means that the level of knowledge that you must have as a human, if you are the person who is the first call after the client can't figure out what to do digitally, that's absolutely required. So we're doing a lot in training our current workforce. We're thinking through what are the characteristics of people that we would hire into these roles because if we actually care about that client experience, it's not just how perfect the digital may or may not be, it's about how do we support what the relationship managers are doing with the appropriate knowledge when it comes to addressing any of these issues coming off of our digital architecture.

Peter Renton (28:22):
So what about at KeyBank? How are you hiring differently today than maybe five years ago?

Jon Briggs (28:27):
Yeah, so maybe just to start with how we actually deliver to our clients. We wind the clock back before we started delivering embedded capabilities or more tech enabled solutions. The model was you had an RM and you had your product partners that would come to the table typically selling to C-E-O-C-F-O treasurer, and that's where the conversation was. Now, increasingly, you start to get into more tech enabled solutions, more embedded solutions. It challenges how a bank actually delivers product to the market. And so we've gone through this evolution where today you have the RM who really owns the relationship. You have a payment advisor that's helping deliver the breadth of payments capabilities, and they have, I would say a little bit beyond surface depth knowledge around the solutions. Then you have more technical solution consultants that can be more consultative, go a little bit deeper technically, and then augmenting them.

(29:34):
We have solution engineers that if you have to have a conversation with the engineering team on the client side, those are the folks that have the skillset to be able to have that conversation that didn't exist in our model five, six years ago. It does today. And as a result, it's challenged the type of people that were recruiting into banking. Over 80% of the folks that we've brought onto the platform in the last three years are from non-banking backgrounds. And I think that just speaks to what's required to be able to compete in this new digital age. That's

Peter Renton (30:15):
Really interesting. So I want to talk about ai. We're three quarters of the way through our session. We haven't talked about AI yet. That's impressive. But there was two really interesting keynotes this morning, Christopher, you may not have seen it if you arrived at 3:45 AM but there was a couple of really, really interesting sessions that got me thinking about AI a little bit differently. But what I want to do is talk about the impact to me when I think about personalized customer experience, I think about data and I think about data analytics and the power of AI to bring this forth. So how is AI going to really have a big impact on this personalization that we've been talking about?

Christopher Hollins (31:08):
A couple of things that we've been, I'd say debating internally is

(31:17):
Who is going to be responsible for the algorithm? Because all of this has to do with what information you're pulling together to come up with a result. And if you go back to what RMS do, RMS believe, and I agree with them, that their special sauces in their individual book, they know what to do for the clients that they're serving. They have that algorithm for themselves in that book. How do you replicate that in a way that scales, that recognizes that RMS do things differently because that's where the information's coming from, whether it's in CRM or not, it didn't just come out of the sky. It came because an RM in most cases put something in or that we've been monitoring transactions as an organization to manage against risk, and now we're pulling together basically a data salad to determine what is the next appropriate action.

(32:14):
I think in our industry that is super regulated, we have to be very mindful of letting the horse out of the proverbial barn and not having control of this where you end up with very negative instances, which then takes away the trust in the bank, just like there's a couple of other no-nos that you have to stay away from. One of them is messing around with people's financial current state and future state, and so long-winded answer is saying that we are working on it. We're not certain where we need for it to sit for it to be appropriately brand aligned and at the same time providing something of benefit to the client.

Peter Renton (33:04):
Do you want to jump in?

Jon Briggs (33:05):
Yeah, I can jump in. I'm so glad that Chris handled the risk regulatory points. It is for me, what I think is exciting about AI and you hit the nail on head, the critical underpinning is data. And I think what's exciting is it's going to challenge the notion of identity. So if you think about a client's identity within our bank's, four walls, their identity outside of our four walls, if we can sort the data salad, you can start to move to imagine a world where you're not thinking of broad client industry segments, but you're thinking of segments of one. Because you understand every interaction point with your client, you're able to anticipate things because you're able to observe it, whether it's internally or externally, and it allows you to get to a hyper personalized relationship with your clients.

Peter Renton (34:10):
I'm looking forward to that day. So we only have a few minutes left. I want to open it up to the audience. If you have any questions for our esteemed experts up here, we would be happy to take 'em. Anyone? Okay down the front? Just wait for the microphone if you could come through.

Audience Member 1 (34:34):
Thanks. So as you were talking about enabling payments sort of as the early days around the banking as a service or embedded finance or whatever you want to call it, I think it's more embedded finance and banking as a service. Where do you see that capability evolving in say the next three to five years? I think, and particularly John, you were talking to how you see that's changed. They want to do everything inside of their world as opposed to your world, but where's that going to evolve to?

Jon Briggs (35:05):
It's a good question and I actually think we're already seeing some evolution of the model. So if you go back two years ago, the notion of being a payback or a payment facilitator was all the rage and every, hey, you got to become a payment facilitator and you saw this big push in the market and clients, I'm sure calling you guys as they called us, said, Hey, I want to be a payment facilitator. And what that meant was they're principally taking full ownership over the risks, the risk experience and the customer service delivering the solution. And I think what you're starting to see is maybe a migration away from that as clients are starting to realize, well, why do I want to be a compliance expert when I can lean on my bank who's a compliance expert, so where's the world's going from here in the world of embedded, I think we will start to see more things hang off and this speaking from a payments lens, hang off of payments, you're starting to see some examples where liquidity is being inserted into the equation. It's largely being done, I would say on the fringe. You're not really seeing a lot of mainstream banking going into it. I think that's the future and to enable that future though, you're going to have to see a lot of modernization on the risk management side. Banks principally, if you think about core middle market type of lending, it's a lot of backwards looking analysis. When banks have everything they need at their fingertips, they've just got to adapt to that new way of operating. I think that's the future.

Christopher Hollins (37:03):
I'd say on the payback issue, I think it was literally to your point, John, two years ago, many of those potential paybacks thought that there was arbitrage in a profit pool, and so they said, Hey, we're going to do this little bit of light touch. We'll let you do the rest and then we'll manage it. And they said, no, we don't know who your client is. You're not telling us we don't have a way to figure that out. We're not going to do that. We're not going to basically put ourselves in harm's way as your agent for whatever you're choosing to do or choosing not to pay attention to. So that's basically why you saw, I won't say the pipeline's dried up, I'll just say that it's narrowed down to those who recognize that there is an infrastructure that each one of those organizations has to put in place if they're going to take the liability for it, and if they're expecting for us to do that, then we're going to take the majority of the profitable, the ones doing the work

Jon Briggs (38:00):
End on the hook. Yes.

Peter Renton (38:04):
Okay. Other questions over here? Yeah.

Audience Member 2 (38:20):
Hi. I was curious about fraud and identity. When you're crossing organizational boundaries like that, what are some of the issues that you faced and how did you handle it?

Jon Briggs (38:31):
Yeah, I mean fraud, maybe just to talk about, because we hit on what it means to innovate and the stress it can put on your backend infrastructure. Just to use, give you guys a real example. If you think about a CRM and a CRM in a bank, everything kind of hangs off that. It's the start of the process. All your risk processes hang off that including your identity as it relates to fraud, fraud scoring, et cetera. When you start to get into powering the platform economy over all of a sudden your notion of who your client changes and that starts to ripple through the legacy construct of a bank in terms of who is a client and how to think about whether it's fraud, risk, credit risk, the experience around it suddenly becomes a challenge. I would say in terms as it specifically relates to fraud, what I worry about in this model and that we spend a lot of time thinking about is in a bank, we have a lot of different data points coming at us, and as you start to extend that delivery and add a layer in between, you have more limited interaction points, more limited data points to be able to score and understand fraud.

(39:59):
And so my advice to a financial institution looking to go down this path or to a FinTech or SAAS company looking to partner with a bank, spend a lot of time on just that, making sure you have the truly modern fraud capabilities because you will just be by being one layered remove you, add a massive layer of complexity.

Peter Renton (40:31):
Okay. We have time for one more question if there's another question out there. If not, I'll ask the last question. Okay. So let's go and sort of end with a future looking question. We know that this is a one-way street, we're going towards more personalization. We're not ever going to go back to a mass product that is the same for everybody. So what's it going to take to get to the point where we do have, where you talked about everyone has, it's a segment of one. What steps need to be taken to get to that final end goal?

Christopher Hollins (41:10):
I think a couple of things. I think that the basics have to be done correctly. So if you're as a bank, you have to be trusted, you have to be able to do everything that you said you typically have done in the past better than you have before because that becomes the predicate to do anything else. The second piece is that we are, and this is just the industry in general, have to get a lot more nuance around what compliance and knowing your client is. To your earlier point about fraud, a lot of this is people not knowing who the client is and what they're doing and being able to monitor it. You have to be able to do those two things. And then the personalization, which is what I'll consider to be the p and g or the Coca-Cola version, the consumer piece will be more acceptable. But not doing those basics blows up the entire model because you don't mess with people's money.

Jon Briggs (42:03):
Just to echo Chris's comments, I think the non-sexy, which is all those backend processes, risk processes, all that, and I apologize to the tech or risk tech folks that may be in the audience, but I think that's got to become sexy again. Those are the processes and the technologies that truly define the client experience. And so I think that's what the future needs to entail.

Christopher Hollins (42:30):
So risk management, the new sexy. Alright,

Peter Renton (42:33):
I love it. Okay. It's a great note to end on. Thanks John. Thanks Christopher. Give him a big hand everybody.

Christopher Hollins (42:38):
Thank you.