Transcription:
Penny Crosman (00:03):
Welcome to the American Banker podcast. I'm Penny Crosman. Our topic today is something a little different. Can people use Buddhist principles at work to help them manage teams and lead companies? Thane Lawrie, a former CEO of a nonprofit organization, has written a book called
Thane Lawrie (00:35):
Thank you very much, Penelope. It's a pleasure to be on the show. So thanks a lot for having me on.
Penny Crosman (00:40):
Sure. So I think a lot of people in our audience can relate to what you talk about in your book, which is the challenge of having a stressful job, dealing with difficult colleagues and clients, coping with budget shortfalls and tight deadlines and so forth, while also trying to look after a family, trying to maintain physical health and mental health and a moral compass through all of these things. So the idea here is that Buddhist principles could help somebody become a better leader, a better employee, a better colleague and even a better family member. So first of all, to start with, how did you become interested in Buddhism?
Thane Lawrie (01:25):
I think I always had a superficial interest in Buddhism. Even from mid-teens onwards. There was something about the image of the Buddha, it looked peaceful and serene, I suppose those are qualities I was hoping to find in my own life. And I saw a superficial interest in meditation and give it a go. I wasn't a serious practitioner, but then eventually I went to a Buddhist meeting, really half interested in some ways, in my mid twenties, about 25 years ago now, and I met a Buddhist monk. I didn't even know he was going to be the meeting, but just that night he spoke so much sense and spoke with so much clarity about what a peaceful life could look like. It just made so much sense to me and from that moment onwards I was hooked and I just got into it and developed more of an interest. I suppose I eventually became somebody who saw developed practice of meditation and mindfulness on a daily basis. So that's how I got started really, that chance meeting with his monk.
Penny Crosman (02:29):
And what are some of the core Buddhist principles or ideas, especially ones that really resonate with you and ones that might be applied in the workplace?
Thane Lawrie (02:40):
I always think that one of the things that Buddhism points to and some people have said that Buddha found now, and by that I've been tried to live in the now, live in the moment. And that maybe sounds quite simple. But I find this is the case with many people is we actually are very seldom living in the now. We're often thinking about what happened in the past, particularly the workplace, why did they say that for the meeting or some frustration that happened that day or if only I'd got that promotion or what's the next task to do? Probably going do it tomorrow, it's going to hop up that budget next week, et cetera. But as the Buddha said, to find or to live an enlightened life and find peace you've got to live in the moment.
(03:31)
Try to enjoy each moment. And I think that points to something I feel is quite important that from a zen BZddhist perspective, which is the perspective that enlightenment isn't to be found in the future or on a mystical mountain tops, it's to be found here and now everyday. Things like going to work, like doing the task one has to do at work can they become expressions of an enlightened life. And if I live fully in the moment and do the tasks that we do, that we are asked to do diligently, that's where peace and enlightenment could be found.
Penny Crosman (04:10):
When you say we can get enlightenment through our everyday activities, do you mean we kind of learn through the things that we struggle with in our everyday tasks or do you mean that we can with discipline and effort become peaceful in every little thing that we do? Maybe both
Thane Lawrie (04:33):
And maybe a bit of bored. I think what Buddhism points to is that if we live in the moment, which is not necessarily easy to do because our minds are just hardwired to think, if we can just keep bringing ourself back to the moment, the meditation we focus on meditation type of Buddhism might fall. We just sit and we just try to be pleasant to the moment. But minds think before it. You're thinking about where you're going to have for your tea or your next task at work is or what happened in the meeting all Iran, when we realize we're thinking we're just bringing ourselves back to just sit. I think being present to our lives just in the same way. So if we're washing the dish dishes or we're cleaning our clothes or we're filing out poor open out, it worked. How often our minds wander away, we get caught up infestations or thinking about our things, let's bringing ourselves back to the moment and being present. I always say that's an enlightened life, not necessarily an enlightenment itself, but has a natural groundedness to it being in the moment a natural peacefulness now maybe an ecstatic sort of over the top George, that comfortable groundedness, a nice presence. Everyone can be fully in our lives in that moment.
Penny Crosman (05:47):
It takes a lot of discipline to be focused on the present moment, especially most of us are getting slack messages and emails and phone calls, every few mi minutes, sometimes every few seconds. How do you cancel out the noise to maintain this presence that you're talking about?
Thane Lawrie (06:12):
Well that's a good question. I think in many ways we have to recognize that it's very difficult because in Buddhism we talk about acceptance, acceptance of reality of where we are at and we can't just wish a way potentially. Our job is very busy and people who try to clear their minds become frustrated very quickly because it's actually possible to do. And mines just think an organ, a thinking organ. It's just what they do. There's some level this willingness and this practice to try and to try and be willing to try and do it. And by that I mean we try and let go of the thoughts. Doesn't mean you say that they don't keep coming, we just keep letting them go. So when we're working or from a meditative, thoughts will arise and come into our minds. Even monks have said to me, sitting in admonished Street, our minds are really quiet for a long, long period of time.
(07:10)
They think it, things thoughts come into our mind like we do from we're sitting at work. But it's just something about having that willingness and I have disciplines is you say to try and keep letting those things go. So they're still there, we're aware of them except this is busy emails are coming in, we're just trying to stay focused on it. Rather I get caught up in all that, oh what I must do by this time I must do that. I must do this. We're just tie and deal. The emails coming in logically we're through them, time ties into what we're doing fully express ourselves in the email fully and type the email and that way we want to do it. So it is busy. We can't really necessarily take that away from, but it's just this discipline we're try and just keep letting these thoughts go and bring ourselves back to what we're doing. And even our five minutes spell, I might hop a hundred times. There's sum this, letting that go and keeping coming back.
Penny Crosman (08:03):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So you're dealing with the multitasking but you're not adding on with extra thoughts about what am I going to make for dinner or what am I going to do about my child or my pet or all those other extraneous things that aren't even relevant at the moment. That makes a ton of sense. So in the book you describe a situation where the main character has a lot of difficulty with a few of the people he hired who kind of gang up against him and cause trouble. And I think it's a situation a lot of people could relate to with every workplace there are challenges with dealing with other people and it's not always that kind of political thing, but there's always something, or not always, but there's often something with another person that gets under our skin. What do you think are some Buddhist principles that might be applied to that kind of situation where we know someone is causing trouble and we have to address it but we want to be as you save mindful and firm and effective but also kind in sort of a Buddhist fashion?
Thane Lawrie (09:23):
Well these situations I describe with the book, I hope I was trying to show the dilemmas that go on every day. Workplaces. I think it's almost everybody I've spoken into with a work experience. I said some type of come up against a charact I haven got home with and the fella bit treated unfairly with our company and it's really quite bullying as well and the workplace is quite a serious problem. But the way I see it is I suppose Buddhism talks about zen Buddhism, about we all have the Buddha nature in us now. Again, too fancy, but that's just something more than just us than just our mind. There's a natural groundedness and it's all a natural peacefulness and it's all a natural contentment or maybe described the good in it, but everybody has the possibility of realizing that or experiencing that through, as you mentioned, a slight discipline life, meditating every day trying to be mindful and grounded.
(10:22)
Russia, I was wonder in our workplace if we can recognize everybody has the potential of our Buddha, we can recognize that we're all connected, we all have this maybe that engender us, but our bud will towards our fellow. Although I think a passion is two sides to it and I think we need to know our own values and I think trying to live a good life, we need to know our company's values as well. I think hopefully and they would be positive values and how we want to treat people as a company, then we need to be clear as well if people step over those boundaries, they do need to be dealt with. Even as our Buddhist, I believer, I believe by that I might say it though still recognizing that the Budd nature and in everybody, everybody's a potential to realize the first point of call would be, well actually a point out person, these behaviors are causing a problem and these are the types of changes we need to see in order for a problem to stop.
(11:26)
And I catch fear, I come to do that. And in my experience, some people who were not as pointed out to them are often quite shocked and slightly embarrassed and had new idea that were causing a problem the change quite quickly. But I've also excused our side where some people don't and I accept it. There are people or whatever a reason, whether it's they lot psychology or from the past, maybe I can't change. And I think they're causing huge problem with the company. It's quite right to take a to, I like to create a positive alter. You do have to deal with those people. And I think in my life I've seen examples of toxic people who've caused lots of problems and have caused lots of suffering by their colleagues. I've seen senior manager duck not and responsibility, but I think Italy tackle life. You're going to develop a peaceful workplace culture if people are chances where you can, some things you can't back from examples like boss misconduct for [inaudible] if you salsa workplace, but a lot of people's behavior are not at that level. If people are changed to the change and if they do it well then I think they're going to create this atmosphere in your workplace. I think you have to deal with these people.
Penny Crosman (12:41):
We'll be right back after this message and we're back. So you also talk in your book about this character kind of becoming a workaholic and the person's health suffering and sort of knows he wants to attain work-life balance but really struggles with that. Are there some Buddhist practices or habits that can help with that kind of work-life balance?
Thane Lawrie (13:12):
Yeah, I think it's someone named, I see it's very, very common now across the workplace in the western world that people are getting burned out and they're doing too much and they don't often realize it until it's too late and have to say, I experienced that a little bit myself and my own career. So I think you've going to be very careful. I think it's a very easy for CEOs or senior people who fall into a trap where they think a CEO or a senior leader, they can cope with things. They can deal with things and all. Also I pervious distress and strain. I think over time it does take, its too, but I think it's important that senior people find respite. So for me it's meditation and trying to spend some time in nature outdoors and waste and relax for other people are maybe other things.
(14:02)
Swimming, go to the gym, whoever it is, it's important that you do that and get away, get away from it. The stretch isn't one thing. The main character in the book also and discovered was helpful as a chapter in the book called The Fellowship of the CEOs. But he felt that it was very difficult to share his, very difficult to share the challenges that he faced because as a CEO he wanted to be there for his senior staff and other staff. He felt that he said he was struggling. What did that message did that send to the workforce? And I think that's probably a common feeling that many CEOs have or senior staff have. They can be quite isolated. But he started out what he called the fellowship of the CEOs. He reached to other CEOs of similar type organization and he wondered, do these people feel the same way as me?
(14:59)
So when he did get 'em together, he ended up creating this group of N CEOs and got together somebody close and when he started to share the struggles and frustrations he are with the stations, the odd with the difficult people used to deal with and also the stations you had with the board and the board of directors and expectations they had on him financially and in other ways as well. He founded other CEOs, felt exactly the same way. They were all inspirational people. He all did things in a way he admire, but he could recognize and all felt the stress, they all felt the strained and they were no different from him. They guys to realize this is probably just a normal human reaction to a stressful situation. So I just wonder of reaching out to people also, maybe not and I candidates can beat against you, but as ways of finding that sort of what in my experience and the book image finds it other cus and C people are quite open to us. They create our rules around their meetings where they want they keep things confidential and here said the meeting stays within the meeting. It finds out really liberating but able to speak that people realize that it's not different from them. They have the same frustrations and the same D had difficulties, not able to go to this group and share the challenge and hear how our CEOs might deal with it. And sometimes they agrees with them. Some people they find her as a really positive way of trying to cope with the stress.
Penny Crosman (16:26):
That makes a lot of sense. Being able to vent and get advice from other people who have been in very similar situations. Whereas your family or you can't, won't necessarily understand that the people at work, you can't talk to the people at work about it. So that sounds like a great way to get other opinions and let off steam at the same time. So my last question for you is do you have a morning routine that helps you set yourself up mentally and physically for the day?
Thane Lawrie (16:59):
I do every morning bar bought a very few days that year, but I'm maybe ill or something now I've got very early if like this, but generally speaking I get up every morning and the first thing I do is me try, I do anything else before the, try not to tell you the house or hard look at emails. I get involved in something and I meditate and I meditate for usually 20, 25 minutes. The timing I think doesn't really matter that much. I just find I notice it's days and I don't meditate. It's just not quite the same. Just something about starting the day and now way just makes me, it helps me feel grounded, helps me if you are study peaceful and just ships have set me up for the day ahead. And certainly something monks I've met over the years see Bear. Amen. Regularly rather than do for a long time, only occasionally bear one or two minutes a day rather than 20 minutes once a week sort of thing. So somehow it's starting your day and if you can't search your day without as well. But certainly starting the day, I feel it just sets me in the right frame of mind to go into my day with this intention to be positive. This a tension to do well with intention to all with people and contribute to the world in a positive way.
Penny Crosman (18:12):
That intention seems so important in anything in life. And just last thing, are there any books that you would suggest people read if they want to learn more about Buddhism or some of these principles even talking about?
Thane Lawrie (18:27):
Yeah, I mean there's many books in Buddhism, but one of my favorites is that book written by Suzuki called Zen Mine, beginner's Mine. And he was a Japanese monk, came to America in the late fifties, early sixties, and he founded the San Francisco Zen Center, which is still running to his day. He passed away now. But always think that's one of the best books it it's our collections like shorts or essays and Zen Mind, beginner's mind. And I often thinking you just remember the name of that, the title of the book I don't even read. It's quite lot teaching in that Zen Mind. Beginner's Mind taking that book every day come out that beginner's mind by learning. I knew or start off flesh and I just like, it's one of my favorite book.
Penny Crosman (19:13):
Oh, I want to try that.
Thane Lawrie (19:14):
As well as the Buddhist Sea. Of course.
Penny Crosman (19:16):
Of course. <laugh>. All right. Well that's great. I will look that up. Well thank you Thane very much. Thank you all for listening to the American Banker podcast. I produced this episode with audio production by Kellie Malone. Special thanks this week to Thane Lawrie, author of the book, the Buddhist CEO. Rate Us. Review us and subscribe to our content at www.americanbanker.com/subscribe. For American Banker, I'm Penny Crosman and thanks for listening.